VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#31

Post by mrkwse » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #13

seibelj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it weren’t the case, but the mining of rare earth materials is quite hazardous as well as the electricity production that powers EVs. We are mostly moving the environmental damage to other places. However if we can get to renewable energy (nuclear power, as solar panel manufacturing has a lot of damage as well currently) then we can truly be carbon neutral. The best thing to say about EVs is that air quality i…

Am I right in believing an EV has a lower carbon output per unit distance than an ICE vehicle even if charged by thermal coal power?

Possibly, the relatively new Polestar marque has published it's transparency report about lifetime emissions, and references 'Global' and 'European' power mixes along with 100% wind in it's sums about after how many miles it will have produced less CO2 overall (inc. production emissions) vs. a ICE equivalent. Polestar's figures for the 2 are (vs the XC40 on the same underlying platform):

Global power mix: 112,000 km (69,594 miles) European power mix: 78,000 km (48,467 miles) Wind power: 50,000 km (31,068 miles)

The electrical emissions data comes from GaBi, but I can't see reference to the specific mixes they mention in the GaBi professional database, so I don't know what the exact breakdown of the mixes are.

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#32

Post by vidaj » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

shajznnckfke wrote: post #14

seibelj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it weren’t the case, but the mining of rare earth materials is quite hazardous as well as the electricity production that powers EVs. We are mostly moving the environmental damage to other places. However if we can get to renewable energy (nuclear power, as solar panel manufacturing has a lot of damage as well currently) then we can truly be carbon neutral. The best thing to say about EVs is that air quality i…

Doesn’t most of Norway’s power come from hydro?

About 96%-99% of Norway's power come from hydro.

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#33

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

seibelj wrote: post #4

The Norwegian EV incentives: No purchase/import taxes (1990-) Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-) No annual road tax (1996-) No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997- 2017). Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018-) Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2019) Free municipal parking (1999- 2017) Parking fee for EVs was introduced locally with an upper limit of a maxi…

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

Not only CO2 but a lot of toxic fumes as well.

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#34

Post by atmosx » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #27

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

Electric vehicles cause much more CO2 emissions during production as compared to cars with internal combustion engines due to complicated manufacturing process of the battery. If you’re comparing CO2 emissions, you have to consider the full lifecycle.

That's interesting, and self-defeating I might add!

Do you have any data to share supporting the claim?

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#35

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:57 AM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #21

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

That's not true. EU has very strict policies about emissions. The most immediate and obvious cost is not being able to drive those cars that do not respect the limits. Also: in many EU countries fuel is heavily taxed In Italy 75% of the price to the pump is taxes. Definitely not free.

Carbon emissions and units of currency are not fungible.

So unless some of that tax is intended to be a carbon tax and works to incentive cleaner alternatives, then this is a pretty weak argument.

Also, the producers aren't paying he cost, end users are[1] and without much in the way of alternatives.

1. always do, but you get where I'm coming from

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#36

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:58 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #11

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

I wish it weren’t the case, but the mining of rare earth materials is quite hazardous as well as the electricity production that powers EVs. We are mostly moving the environmental damage to other places. However if we can get to renewable energy (nuclear power, as solar panel manufacturing has a lot of damage as well currently) then we can truly be carbon neutral. The best thing to say about EVs is that air quality i…

Off topic: Nuclear power isn't renewable energy. If we keep it up and cannot find methods to extract it more efficiently, the current rate of consumption would consume conventional uranium reserves by 2080. Some say we can add 100 years for potentially undiscovered ones, but it is certainly limited. Especially if we increase usage further, currently NP just serves around 12% of energy worldwide.

I know that NP is hip right now, but it really has its own problems at scale.

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#37

Post by harrygeez » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #27

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

Electric vehicles cause much more CO2 emissions during production as compared to cars with internal combustion engines due to complicated manufacturing process of the battery. If you’re comparing CO2 emissions, you have to consider the full lifecycle.

Really fascinating if true

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#38

Post by dagurp » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 8:00 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #22

adrianN wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving the environmental damage from "everywhere in the atmosphere", to mining sites and power plants is a good thing. Power plants can be replaced with carbon free energy sources, but synthetic fuels have such terrible efficiency that they only make sense for niche applications.

I mean if you don’t care about African mines and Chinese rivers that factories dump their effluent into, sure. But there is absolutely an environmental cost, just less to the wealthy nations that pay to move the damage elsewhere.

If you're talking about cobalt you should know that it's also used to refine oil. Battery makers are moving away from it and Tesla have already invented batteries that use no cobalt at all (see battery day)

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#39

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 8:00 AM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #27

Dylan16807 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand gas and diesel vehicles are effectively subsidized by getting to release CO2 for free.

Electric vehicles cause much more CO2 emissions during production as compared to cars with internal combustion engines due to complicated manufacturing process of the battery. If you’re comparing CO2 emissions, you have to consider the full lifecycle.

I can't help but feel the CO2 released by any manufacturing process is either:

a) Due to the factory power source which will probably (hopefully) be renewable soon

b) Due to some processing step where carbon capture should be a lot easier to perform than the direct air capture necessary to capture car emissions.

So the method of emissions needs to be considered as well.

Re: VW sees EVs making up 90% of Norway sales in 2021

#40

Post by tdrgabi » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 8:00 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #22

adrianN wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving the environmental damage from "everywhere in the atmosphere", to mining sites and power plants is a good thing. Power plants can be replaced with carbon free energy sources, but synthetic fuels have such terrible efficiency that they only make sense for niche applications.

I mean if you don’t care about African mines and Chinese rivers that factories dump their effluent into, sure. But there is absolutely an environmental cost, just less to the wealthy nations that pay to move the damage elsewhere.

I think his point was that the damage moves from "everywhere" to certain places like factories and mines. Than you can add better filters/cleanup to the factories and mines.

It's a simpler problem to tackle if you have a few thousands polluting agents than billions of polluting agents everywhere.