Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 102 posts

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#71

Post by john_moscow »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #68
john_moscow wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is very strongly correlated with culture. And many cultural traits are crucial to doing work that companies need. It's just very hard to measure one's culture and it's very easy to measure their skin color. I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea. A much better way could be finding aspiring people from underrepresented populations and removing roadblocks on the way of specific…

> I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea. Microsoft is not being forced hire more diverse leadership; this Microsoft's own internal initiative.

Someone at the board suggested it, and if anyone else opposed it, they would lose their seat as a racist.

That is effectively being forced.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#72

Post by cjohnson318 »

john_moscow wrote: post #67
cjohnson318 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the racial equality movement has been hijacked by politicians that offer a short-term solution: divide people by the most visible factor, such as skin color, then take from the overrepresented and give to the underrepresented. I think this is totally backwards. If anything, the U.S. government takes from the underrepresented and gives to the overrepresented. This is achieved through gerrymandering districts to d…

I'm not talking about the federal government. I meant affirmative action programs on institution level. I guess, "activists" would be a better word than "politicians".

So are you talking about "activists" in HR, or management? I don't know what you're talking about with respect to taking from the "overrepresented" and giving to the "underrepresented". Under- and overrepresentation is unusual wording for salaried employees in an institution.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#73

Post by whoisjuan »

run2arun wrote: post #59
whoisjuan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's exactly what I meant. I said that something in the downstream equation is broken if the outcome doesn't reflect a similar proportion.

The tech population need not reflect a similar proportion ever. It depends on people's individual interests, who different cultures follow as role models etc. This question somehow only arises in tech. No one cares about making races equitable in other industries as much. What about farming? Or similar proportion of dentists, farmers, chess players?

Where did I mention tech?. Seems that you're equating my statement to saying that 13% of the tech jobs should go to African Americans which is far from what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the proportions should always match if all citizens are receiving equal opportunities.

Let's imagine a theoretical population somewhere where 80% of the people are white and 20% are black. Let's say 50% of all the population studies some tech related career and following one of your examples 10% of the population studies odontology. Let's assume the rest of the population studies or prepares for something else. Let's assume for a minute that unemployment is at 0%.

Then 40% of tech employed population should be white, 10% should be black.

8% of the employed dentists are white. 2% are black.

The rest of the employed population is 32% white and 8% black.

That's it. That's all what I'm saying. I'm not even remotely trying or interested to argue politics here. I'm telling you in plain layman's terms that populations should downscale proportionally in an organized, civilized society.

You're talking about whether or not this is a problem in other industries, and honestly I couldn't care less about that for the sake of this argument. I'm just telling you how society should work if it was unbiased and logical, not whether or not this works with whatever belief system or preconceptions of race or professional competency you have (or anyone has).

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#74

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

threatofrain wrote: post #69
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About on par with the Midwest and Northeast by every metric I'm familiar with. The stereotype of the South as an atypically racist place is outdated.

Do those metrics include Asians? What's the story of Asians in the south?

It's a lot harder to measure how welcomed specific groups are than to measure diversity in general, but it's my (anecdotal, limited) understanding that they're reasonably welcomed. It's worth noting that South Carolina and Louisiana are the only states outside the West Coast to have elected Asian governors.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#75

Post by tzs »

umvi wrote: post #2

> "We are clear that the law prohibits us from discriminating on the basis of race," the firm's lawyer Dev Stahlkopf blogged. Pardon my ignorance... But I thought in the case of affirmative action, discrimination based on race was legal? Reading on... > It has informed the tech giant that while companies can set affirmative action goals to boost employment of "minorities and women", they "must not engage in discrimin…

Look at how Caltech went from 15% women undergraduates when I was a student there in the '80s to 45% now without discriminating on the basis of gender in admission.

Rather than making gender a factor in admissions, they concentrated on getting more qualified women to apply. They would contact high school women who were very good in STEM subjects and their parents, and send someone to visit them and try to convince them that Caltech was the place to be.

Once they applied, gender wasn't a factor in deciding whether or not to admit them.

The top tech companies could do something similar for both race and gender. They have the resources to draw from the entire country. It wouldn't work so well for companies that only have the resources to recruit locally.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#76

Post by cjohnson318 »

john_moscow wrote: post #71
cjohnson318 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea. Microsoft is not being forced hire more diverse leadership; this Microsoft's own internal initiative.

Someone at the board suggested it, and if anyone else opposed it, they would lose their seat as a racist. That is effectively being forced.

I think the list of board members of major companies that have lost their seat due to real or perceived racism is extremely short, unless you have a long list of them lying about.

I seriously doubt a whole board was strong-armed by a single person, and if it was a plurality of board members that suggested this, then that's how boards are intended to work.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#77

Post by john_moscow »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #76
john_moscow wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone at the board suggested it, and if anyone else opposed it, they would lose their seat as a racist. That is effectively being forced.

I think the list of board members of major companies that have lost their seat due to real or perceived racism is extremely short, unless you have a long list of them lying about. I seriously doubt a whole board was strong-armed by a single person, and if it was a plurality of board members that suggested this, then that's how boards are intended to work.

I think, after the James D'Amore case, anyone with 10% of the wits needed to get to FAANG board learned to shut up and nod.

You don't get that high up without playing the political game, and the rules of the game at this point are very clear.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#78

Post by run2arun »

whoisjuan wrote: post #73
run2arun wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech population need not reflect a similar proportion ever. It depends on people's individual interests, who different cultures follow as role models etc. This question somehow only arises in tech. No one cares about making races equitable in other industries as much. What about farming? Or similar proportion of dentists, farmers, chess players?

Where did I mention tech?. Seems that you're equating my statement to saying that 13% of the tech jobs should go to African Americans which is far from what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the proportions should always match if all citizens are receiving equal opportunities. Let's imagine a theoretical population somewhere where 80% of the people are white and 20% are black. Let's say 50% of all the population st…

I agree you did not mention tech. That was my secondary observation regarding the overall issue.

Your original comment reads: > African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)?

Your thought experiment does not apply here because it assumes the same percentage of every population desires the same career. That need not reflect what we see in the real world. What if 50% of one race and 10% of another desires a specific career, the outcomes will reflect those numbers.

Again, you are ignoring the statement regarding people's interests and who they consider role models and what they consider as rewarding. In a world of equal opportunities, humans are still the variables, they will choose what they like. If there is a systemic problem that prohibits a certain race from reaching their aspirations, that is abominable and should be cut out.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#79

Post by stepsrabbit »

john_moscow wrote: post #65
stepsrabbit wrote: post #62

I've worked at places where I ended up realizing I was hired mainly because I'm black. Not that I'm not a good engineer, mind you, but some of these places just wanted a "token black guy" or they actually had quotas as part of some social responsibility/inclusiveness BS. You know what? I absolutely hated those places and didn't last long there. I definitely don't want to be excluded because of how I look, but I don't…

You need to speak up more about this, man. If a White person publicly advocates for what you just mentioned, they will be labeled racist, canceled and will have hard time finding a job for the rest of their life. As a Black, you have a much higher chance to be heard, and maybe even seen as a role model by other Blacks who would otherwise consider themselves victims. That's the only realistic way to solve the problem.

For context I'm European but I did live in the US (TX) for 5 years. I need to go get some sleep, but very briefly:

I would say that the focus on race is a real problem over there - there's discrimination, hate, taboo topics and excessive PC, affirmative action, it's a political talking point, you have to identify as one of a few races in all kinds of forms (which is ridiculous - is a Portuguese person white or hispanic? What if they are black or mixed?)... The list goes on.

Minorities are generally of a lower socioeconomic status than the majority. People of a lower socioeconomic status are less likely to get a proper education (particularly in the US where university is super expensive). People without an education don't get white collar jobs, and thus have more trouble moving up the societal ladder. Therefore, there's less role models. I think you see where I'm getting at - it's a vicious cycle and I think ensuring everyone has access to proper education should be one of your top priorities.

Real racism is also a problem there, of course. But I fear that quotas will not help with that and just compound the problem instead.

Maybe I'll blog about this stuff one day.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#80

Post by whoisjuan »

run2arun wrote: post #78
whoisjuan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I mention tech?. Seems that you're equating my statement to saying that 13% of the tech jobs should go to African Americans which is far from what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the proportions should always match if all citizens are receiving equal opportunities. Let's imagine a theoretical population somewhere where 80% of the people are white and 20% are black. Let's say 50% of all the population st…

I agree you did not mention tech. That was my secondary observation regarding the overall issue. Your original comment reads: > African Americans are 13% of the US Population. Isn't it reasonable to aspire to have at least 13% of African American staff (proportionally adjusted per state/city populations)? Your thought experiment does not apply here because it assumes the same percentage of every population desires th…

Ok. That's fair. I now understand your point and you're right. Once you bring human and cultural values into the equation the proportions won't work perfectly, perhaps not even close to what the mathematical reasoning suggests.

My idea is that in a world of loud opinions and poor reasoning, we should be able to understand if there are bottlenecks that have nothing to do with culture or interests and more with how society creates equal opportunities for its citizens. Any competent and ethical politician should understand that, regardless if they are right or left. If that was the case policy making will orbit around controlling systemic variables that put minorities in disadvantage and not so much on the emotional vitriol that comes from both sides when talking about diversity and racial equality.

I would hope that a company like Microsoft is willing to create objectives around diversity, not for the optics but rather because they actually have identified said bottlenecks in their own system and understand objectively why this is problematic.

At the end of the day I think the problem is that people always want to pin the problem on someone else, when it's more than clear discrimination happens as a result of an uneducated, siloed sub-societies that are designed to keep social, economical, racial and cultural boundaries. We should design societies in such a way that when a silo is created it can be immediately be disolved to restore the balance.

Post reply on HN