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Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

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Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#61

Post by john_moscow »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #55
elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

MS could increase their diversity by broadening where they advertise job listings, developing mentorship programs at schools with more diverse populations, or even simply changing the language used in job postings. Building a diverse work force need not (indeed should not) be as simplistic as hiring inferior candidates because they meet some quota. Building a diverse workforce should be about making sure you get the…

Race is very strongly correlated with culture. And many cultural traits are crucial to doing work that companies need. It's just very hard to measure one's culture and it's very easy to measure their skin color.

I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea. A much better way could be finding aspiring people from underrepresented populations and removing roadblocks on the way of specific people.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#62

Post by stepsrabbit »

I've worked at places where I ended up realizing I was hired mainly because I'm black. Not that I'm not a good engineer, mind you, but some of these places just wanted a "token black guy" or they actually had quotas as part of some social responsibility/inclusiveness BS.

You know what? I absolutely hated those places and didn't last long there. I definitely don't want to be excluded because of how I look, but I don't want to be hired or treated differently because of it either. I'm much happier at my current employer where there is no such BS and black people are a very small minority, which is absolutely fine since we are also a very small minority of CS students where I live.

Also on the topic of education - don't create quotas or special programs for people with a certain appearance or ethnic background. Instead, create programs for the disadvantaged.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#63

Post by geitir »

elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

This post is no longer showing up for me on the front page or even the second page. Can anyone else verify?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#64

Post by cjohnson318 »

john_moscow wrote: post #54
elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

The elephant in the room is that due to rather dark times in the U.S. history, there are cultural differences between an average Black and an average White family. It doesn't mean that every family of a certain race will fit the stereotype, but if you look at numbers, they do check out. This isn't fair, this isn't nice, but it's a very important piece of the puzzle and you cannot solve the problem without admitting i…

> So the racial equality movement has been hijacked by politicians that offer a short-term solution: divide people by the most visible factor, such as skin color, then take from the overrepresented and give to the underrepresented.

I think this is totally backwards. If anything, the U.S. government takes from the underrepresented and gives to the overrepresented. This is achieved through gerrymandering districts to dilute minority votes, limiting voting sites, and asking "concerned citizens" to "monitor" voting locations. Our social welfare programs pale in comparison to the subsidies and tax cuts given to big businesses, and other overrepresented groups.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#65

Post by john_moscow »

stepsrabbit wrote: post #62

I've worked at places where I ended up realizing I was hired mainly because I'm black. Not that I'm not a good engineer, mind you, but some of these places just wanted a "token black guy" or they actually had quotas as part of some social responsibility/inclusiveness BS. You know what? I absolutely hated those places and didn't last long there. I definitely don't want to be excluded because of how I look, but I don't…

You need to speak up more about this, man. If a White person publicly advocates for what you just mentioned, they will be labeled racist, canceled and will have hard time finding a job for the rest of their life. As a Black, you have a much higher chance to be heard, and maybe even seen as a role model by other Blacks who would otherwise consider themselves victims. That's the only realistic way to solve the problem.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#66

Post by zaroth »

whoisjuan wrote: post #45
zaroth wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you assume that the racial demographics of a particular corporate entity’s workforce should match the national average demographic breakdown? Can you think of any reasons why a specific workplace’s demographics might deviate from the mean that isn’t rooted in unequal opportunity ?

Yes, read my comment as it seems that nobody is fully reading it. I'm saying that if the final proportion doesn't reflect the demographics proportion then there's a bottleneck somewhere down the line that produces less black professionals.

I think the crucial factor that will skew this is that racial demographics are strongly correlated with cultural demographics, and different cultures will place wildly varying value judgements on different lively pursuits.

It seems to me that what this mathematical approach would be striving for—in trying to make workforce demographics equal population demographics—is total homogenization, which is to say, total destruction of cultural identity.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#67

Post by john_moscow »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #64
john_moscow wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room is that due to rather dark times in the U.S. history, there are cultural differences between an average Black and an average White family. It doesn't mean that every family of a certain race will fit the stereotype, but if you look at numbers, they do check out. This isn't fair, this isn't nice, but it's a very important piece of the puzzle and you cannot solve the problem without admitting i…

> So the racial equality movement has been hijacked by politicians that offer a short-term solution: divide people by the most visible factor, such as skin color, then take from the overrepresented and give to the underrepresented. I think this is totally backwards. If anything, the U.S. government takes from the underrepresented and gives to the overrepresented. This is achieved through gerrymandering districts to d…

I'm not talking about the federal government. I meant affirmative action programs on institution level. I guess, "activists" would be a better word than "politicians".

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#68

Post by cjohnson318 »

john_moscow wrote: post #61
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MS could increase their diversity by broadening where they advertise job listings, developing mentorship programs at schools with more diverse populations, or even simply changing the language used in job postings. Building a diverse work force need not (indeed should not) be as simplistic as hiring inferior candidates because they meet some quota. Building a diverse workforce should be about making sure you get the…

Race is very strongly correlated with culture. And many cultural traits are crucial to doing work that companies need. It's just very hard to measure one's culture and it's very easy to measure their skin color. I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea. A much better way could be finding aspiring people from underrepresented populations and removing roadblocks on the way of specific…

> I don't think forcing companies to be diverse per skin color is a good idea.

Microsoft is not being forced hire more diverse leadership; this Microsoft's own internal initiative.

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#69

Post by threatofrain »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #60
threatofrain wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where is the south on the conversation for race, especially Asians and other minorities?

About on par with the Midwest and Northeast by every metric I'm familiar with. The stereotype of the South as an atypically racist place is outdated.

Do those metrics include Asians? What's the story of Asians in the south?

Re: Microsoft probed by US government over aim to double black staff numbers

#70

Post by john_moscow »

geitir wrote: post #63
elisbce wrote: post #18

Any affirmative action is by definition discriminating on the basis of race. If you want the best candidate for the job, you don't look at race, you look at their abilities to do the job. Period. Any bias towards hiring one race implies bias against hiring from other races. Why is it okay to have almost no Asian players in the NBA while a small percentage of black people in tech is a big fuss? It is all hypocrisy.

This post is no longer showing up for me on the front page or even the second page. Can anyone else verify?

Verified.

The thing is, Affirmative Action is one of those topics where having a "wrong" opinion is seen as treason by these in power. And far too many people here had the "wrong" opinion. The good news is, the tide is turning.

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