If doctors were interviewed like software developers • Hacker News Board

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#51

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

_qulr wrote: post #2

I don't think doctors are a useful analogy for software developers. You mention doctors, then people are going to say "we need licensing for software developers" (which for the majority of programming jobs is silly IMO), and the conversation goes off the rails. Doctors are an unusual profession, leave it at that.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

All these roles have certain code they have to work to. A plumber can't just go into a home and install something outside of code.

Software is generally rather ephemeral and without a code to write or build to. We have "best practices".

Yes, some software is built under engineering assumptions - airplane software, etc. NASA has a standard they write code to and software engineers are expected to work within these confines. Part of the code requires reviews of written software, etc. [1]

[1] https://sma.nasa.gov/sma-disciplines/software-assurance/2019...

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#52

Post by phobosanomaly » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

Medicine does have a strong culture of ongoing technical interviewing.

The OSCI is done on a weekly basis by most first and second-year medical students in the US. By the time you come in contact with real patients (as a student), you've done the equivalent of nearly a hundred technical interviews. It's increasingly common to be doing them both in Spanish and English as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_structured_clinical_...

"It is designed to test clinical skill performance and competence in skills such as communication, clinical examination, medical procedures prescription, exercise prescription, joint mobilisation/manipulation techniques, radiographic positioning, radiographic image evaluation, and interpretation of results."

"An OSCE usually comprises a circuit of short (the usual is 5–10 minutes although some use up to 15 minute) stations, in which each candidate is examined on a one-to-one basis with one or two impartial examiner(s) and either real or simulated (actors or electronic patient simulators) patients.

Each station has a different examiner, as opposed to the traditional method of clinical examinations where a candidate would be assigned to an examiner for the entire examination. Candidates rotate through the stations, completing all the stations on their circuit. In this way, all candidates take the same stations. It is considered to be an improvement over traditional examination methods because the stations can be standardised enabling fairer peer comparison and complex procedures can be assessed without endangering patients health."

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#53

Post by _qulr » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #37

_qulr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. These are almost exclusively local regulations, not US national requirements, and certainly not international. So even if there were licensing, whose jurisdiction applies? What if you have distributed software development teams?

It's complicated so we should just not care?

I think "Why is software different?" is the wrong question. Why is software the same? Most professions don't need professional licensing, and it's not clear that the economy would be served well by adding licensing requirements.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#54

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #35

sxp wrote: post #30

If doctors were really interviewed like programmers, it would be possible to get into top medical position without a major degree. I only have a BS in computer engineering from a mid-tier college, but I was able to get into two FAANGs based on passing the interviews and using skills I learned outside of college. And I know people in similar positions who have a worse formal education but were also able to get into po…

What is your salary? What is the salary of a doctor? You're probably aware of the first but not the second. Just so you know, doctors are not paid little and developers are really not paid that much in comparison. You should also consider that FANG are 4 extremely selective companies only existing in the valley (the cream of the crop) while doctors can work pretty much anywhere in a country and do very well.

For the hours they have to work and the conditions they have to work in... doctors are paid ok.

You'd have to pay me a hell of a lot to have to drive to a hospital each morning and stand around on my feet for a 48-hour shift dealing with high-risk problems and real people all day. No thanks.

I think they do it for pretty reasonable compensation considering.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#55

Post by user5994461 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

raziel2p wrote: post #31

user5994461 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

This just sounds like a heavy dose of confirmation and/or affinity bias. The best developers I've worked with had no degree at all or a degree in something completely separate from development. I think a healthy mix of both academic and purely practical experience is the best.

I will reply to this comment since this is probably the most relevant.

You're on point that there is a personal bias. Developers without degrees congregate together where they can, while developers with degrees congregate together to other places. There is a major self selection.

Saw a lot of the first when I was doing contracting in the UK, saw a lot of the later as permanent in tech companies. If you're interviewing for google you're way more likely to have 2 stanford majors in the interview panel than 2 developers without format education.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#56

Post by donmcronald » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #28

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

Something I never understood when I was younger is the professional networking side of getting a degree is just as or more important than the educational side. Yeah, it's good to have knowledge, but you can learn most of it after the fact, especially with the resources available online these days.

However, you can't learn or get a do over on getting in with the right social group. That's why so many "successful" people come from ivy league schools even though some of them seem to be pretty dumb. It's more about getting into a rich and powerful social group than getting an education. Once you're in with that group you have a very high chance of success as long as you're not a total fuck up.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#57

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

Doctors do have side projects, though.

I even worked with a doctor on a mutual side project https://chrisseaton.com/merseyburns/.

And guess what? Based on the strength of that side project the doctors I worked with now have jobs related to what they did in the side project!

It's literally no different.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#58

Post by bigwavedave » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

b20000 wrote: post #16

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chances of people dying from my web app is super slim. Chances of people dying because I bladly wired their house is and it caught fire is a lot higher. Chances of me dying while developing my web app is super slim. Chances of someone frying themselves with wiring something up when they don't know how is a lot higher.

I will leave this right here for your education - https://www.bugsnag.com/blog/bug-day-ariane-5-disaster

GP doesn't say it's never happened, just that the typical programmer isn't going to kill someone with a buggy password complexity validator. By and large, the standard programmer does not hold life and death in their hands when navigating callback hell.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#59

Post by jbandela1 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

Actually, these kind of stuff do get asked at the various interviews to becoming a doctor.

* Working for free because it is a passion.

Actually a big part of the medical school interview is making sure you are passionate about medicine. You are pretty much expected to be doing some type of medical volunteering on an ongoing basis to demonstrate your passion. In addition, once you are in medical school, interviewing for residency, demonstrating passion by volunteering or leading a journal club is often a big boost to your chances.

* Whiteboards

As part of the USMLE (US Medical License Exam) there is a clinical skills section. You go into a recorded room with a standardized patient who pretends to have a certain illness. You are expected to ask them the right questions and do the correct exam. You are graded on how well you do.

In addition, before you can get board certified in your specialty (especially in surgery) and be allowed to practice on your own without any supervision, you undergo what are called oral exams. It is kind of like whiteboarding. There you are given hypothetical patient cases and are asked to walk through how you would diagnose it. What questions will you ask, what exams would you do, what imaging or other tests would you order. You are also asked about your treatment plan. If you are a surgeon, you will be asked to walk through how you would do the surgery, including what type of incision and the surgical approach. The examiners may throw in some complications (such as a lot of bleeding) and ask how you would deal with it.

In reality, the medical doctor interviews are much more demanding than the software developer interviews.

Source: I am a medical doctor and software developer and have done both the doctor interviews and the whiteboard interviews.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#60

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #33

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chances of people dying from my web app is super slim. Chances of people dying because I bladly wired their house is and it caught fire is a lot higher. Chances of me dying while developing my web app is super slim. Chances of someone frying themselves with wiring something up when they don't know how is a lot higher.

web apps are a small fraction of the software development world. Software Engineers are responsible for code that runs in hospitals, aircraft, power switching stations, and many many other safety critical systems. In many cases code that was never written for safety critical work is deployed in those environments. What OS and software runs the elevator controls in a hospital or military base? We never know the real i…

That's really not true. At NASA for example there are standards that need to be followed when designing a system, implementing the code for it, reviewing and testing it, and releasing it. [1]

Yes there will always be bugs but no practice or method is invulnerable to this.

Software in general, in these high risk environments, has been extraordinarily successful in terms of reliability and safety.

[1] https://sma.nasa.gov/sma-disciplines/software-assurance/2019...