If doctors were interviewed like software developers • Hacker News Board

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#31

Post by raziel2p » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #28

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

This just sounds like a heavy dose of confirmation and/or affinity bias. The best developers I've worked with had no degree at all or a degree in something completely separate from development. I think a healthy mix of both academic and purely practical experience is the best.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#32

Post by Dumblydorr » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #28

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

How many of the incredibly successful people we know of in the industry were drop outs? I can think of quite a few, and I know of other engineers who thought their CS program was vastly inferior to devoting 100% attention to their company, which they could give maybe 33% to due to classes and undergrad life.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#33

Post by TwistedWeasel » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #9

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

Chances of people dying from my web app is super slim. Chances of people dying because I bladly wired their house is and it caught fire is a lot higher. Chances of me dying while developing my web app is super slim. Chances of someone frying themselves with wiring something up when they don't know how is a lot higher.

web apps are a small fraction of the software development world. Software Engineers are responsible for code that runs in hospitals, aircraft, power switching stations, and many many other safety critical systems. In many cases code that was never written for safety critical work is deployed in those environments. What OS and software runs the elevator controls in a hospital or military base? We never know the real impact of our work.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#34

Post by Dumblydorr » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

The difference is we entrust doctors with ethical and moral power predicated on hundreds of innovations which can kill or harm their patients.

In contrast, we entrust SWEs with massively scaled applications with moral and ethical implications that can lead to societal change like misinformation and indirect death.

Hmmm.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#35

Post by user5994461 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

sxp wrote: post #30

If doctors were really interviewed like programmers, it would be possible to get into top medical position without a major degree. I only have a BS in computer engineering from a mid-tier college, but I was able to get into two FAANGs based on passing the interviews and using skills I learned outside of college. And I know people in similar positions who have a worse formal education but were also able to get into po…

What is your salary? What is the salary of a doctor?

You're probably aware of the first but not the second. Just so you know, doctors are not paid little and developers are really not paid that much in comparison.

You should also consider that FANG are 4 extremely selective companies only existing in the valley (the cream of the crop) while doctors can work pretty much anywhere in a country and do very well.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#36

Post by falcolas » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #28

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

It's hardly a myth. It's not exceptionally common these days with everyone assuming Google's requirements for hiring, but it's not impossible.

How do I know it's not a myth? I have a software architect title, having moved my way up to here from QA.

One of the staff developers I work with has a degree in Physics. So does a senior operations engineer.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#37

Post by TwistedWeasel » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

_qulr wrote: post #20

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

> plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. These are almost exclusively local regulations, not US national requirements, and certainly not international. So even if there were licensing, whose jurisdiction applies? What if you have distributed software development teams?

It's complicated so we should just not care?

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#38

Post by baumandm » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

house9-2 wrote: post #26

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different?

> plumbers, electricians, civil engineers, architects, structural engineers, etc. All these occupations have licensing requirements. Why is software different? There are plenty of journeyman carpenters that do not have a license, this is not a problem as long as they work for a company that is licensed.

You're making an argument in favor of software engineering licensing, just not that every individual involved needs to be licensed.

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#39

Post by sa46 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #3

"We have a lot of redheaded patients, we're looking for someone who has at least 7 years experience working with redheaded patients on a regular basis"

I can't speak to doctors, but I know a few nurse practitioners and jobs will auto-reject if you don't have the correct specialty. A quick search reveals there's at least 13 specialties [1]. "We need an adult gerontology nurse practitioner, not orthopedics."

I thought this was interesting because a common programmer hiring model assumes you can train an exceptional programmer to your specific stack regardless of their existing specialty. I'd argue programming specialties are still broad, maybe frontend, backend, iOS, android, and embedded. Perhaps as the software development matures, we'll see more specialized fragmentation.

[1]: https://nursinglicensemap.com/advanced-practice-nursing/nurs...

Re: If doctors were interviewed like software developers

#40

Post by beardedetim » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #28

lacker wrote: post #7

On the other hand, if software engineers were interviewed like doctors, anyone who didn’t have a U.S. graduate degree would be immediately rejected. Anyone with great experience in another country would be immediately rejected. That is most of the good doctors in the world! The doctor interviewing process is simplified by rejecting the vast majority of qualified candidates before even interviewing them. I think the f…

I'd love if software required a degree. I have a degree and pretty much everybody I ever worked with has a degree. Looking around the entire floor there's only one person without a degree I am aware of. It's a myth that you can work without a degree, you'd never get a job interview in the first place. Seems to be mostly a US myth by the way, makes sense because degrees are crazy expensive there.

As someone from the US but worked for many remote/global companies:

I've never noticed if anyone on my teams had a degree or not.

Those that talked about having a degree often lowered the team's velocity and were the weakest members on the team.

Anecdotal but seems to be common among my friends/advisors.