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Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

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Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#341

Post by remote_phone »

jhloa2 wrote: post #239
missosoup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

Exactly. I live in the US in a relatively typical suburb and the vast majority of people here don't really have an option on whether or not they drive. Our public transit is lacking, jobs are inflexible with WFH, and the majority of housing located close to where jobs are clustered is exorbitantly expensive. The issue is also compounded if you work a blue collar job where it's likely that you aren't even commuting to…

Not a history of being tired. A history of falling asleep. That’s completely different and knowing that you regularly fall asleep at the wheel is akin to murdering someone that doesn’t deserve it. If only the driver died then I wouldn’t care at all but too often others die that don’t deserve it.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#342

Post by godelski »

missosoup wrote: post #185
joosters wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's dangerous for you to drive, don't drive. It's as simple as that. If you can't stay alert enough for more than an hour, don't drive for more than an hour. If people think that #3 is acceptable, they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection.

That's not how real life works. It's dangerous for everyone to drive and in the future manual driving will be as legal as riding horses on highways is today. People do potentially deadly risk reward calculus all the time. And of all potentially deadly things that people regularly do to crack down on, this one would have a pretty huge negative ROI for society. This issue impacts a non-trivial percentage of the populat…

I think the difference here is that some places have easy access to public transportation while most places in the US do not. People that live in one situation don't realize that people live in the other and how different it makes life. I've lived across the US and it has been vastly different.

I grew up in Southern California where one time my car broke down and my 20 minute commute (mostly highway) turned into a 2hr bus ride while my car was in the shop. Once I was an hour late to work because the bus came and went before it was scheduled for that stop. I've lived in a rural town in the south where no public transportation even existed. There wasn't even a way for most people to walk into town because there weren't even sidewalks. A few people biked, but it was pretty well known that if you weren't on a $5k bike riding in the nice area of town you had a DUI and were riding your kid's bike to get to work. I would have had to walk along a highway (a 30 minute walk) just to get to the store (I saw people doing this too). I've been in the Bay and NYC where busses have to wait at stops and there is light rail. Now I live in a city where I rarely drive my car and using my bike is easier to get around. These situations are very different and frankly I don't think people understand this.

The problem is that most of the US doesn't have infrastructure to relieve people of the choice between driving and being safe because they have to maintain their job. In many places there aren't even enough population density to make this economically feasible (aka profitable or net even). Someone was mentioning that technology can't solve this problem, but frankly this seems like the exact problem autonomous vehicles solve. Light rail is great, but it isn't a practical technology for most of the country.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#343

Post by vikramkr »

irrational wrote: post #241
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! So, I should never drive? Not OP, but I experience the same thing. Driving just makes me tired. I've tried running A/C at full cold, caffeine, loud music, audiobooks, etc. Nothing helps. The strange thing is, outside of driving I don't get tired or want to fall asleep except at bedtime. I don't drive when I'm drowsy. Driving make me drows…

Uhh- the thing about not knowing you're sleepy until you fall asleep is not normal. The other discussion in this thread about whether or not its morally OK to drive drowsy does not apply to your situation. Definitely do not drive until you've had a sleep study done and been cleared by a doctor. The usual situation that is being discussed in this thread is where you are already tired and drowsy and decide to drive because you don't have a choice. Your situation sounds like a different medical condition of some sort, and (not a lawyer but) the fact that you are aware of this condition might mean you'd still be guilty of the same crime as someone who decided to drive when drowsy and fell asleep before causing an accident.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#344

Post by vikramkr »

fastball wrote: post #293
matthewmacleod wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you should never drive. I appreciate that this sucks if you live in an environment that requires you to drive, but you are way too blasé about something that runs a decent risk of killing someone, and is absolutely not normal .

Driving in general comes with a decent risk of killing someone. You probably shouldn't do it either.

no but the comment that this comment is replying to is not a normal case of a drowsy driver - it is definitely not normal to not know you are drowsy until you already fall asleep, and that is wildly dangerous

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#345

Post by godelski »

dontcarethrow2 wrote: post #300
missosoup wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how real life works. It's dangerous for everyone to drive and in the future manual driving will be as legal as riding horses on highways is today. People do potentially deadly risk reward calculus all the time. And of all potentially deadly things that people regularly do to crack down on, this one would have a pretty huge negative ROI for society. This issue impacts a non-trivial percentage of the populat…

Driving = Privelege Driving =/= Human right

No one is saying driving is a right. They are saying that if you want to have a job you need a car (in some areas of America). Even moreso if you want a job that pays above minimum wage. The problem is that there is a high pressure to put people in these situations, where the consequence for them has a large impact on their life if they don't put themselves in the risky situation.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#346

Post by judge2020 »

fudged71 wrote: post #46

Tesla has a history of using remote diagnostics to snitch on drivers instead of allowing investigators to do their job. It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you. These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might b…

> It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you.

Don't see when they would ever be responsible for a crime legally, outside of being 'blamed' in dozens of national news headlines; the current legal landscape has continued to uphold that you are responsible for the car even when it's trying to drive itself.

Even with Navigate on Autopilot, you have to continuously apply force to the wheel to prevent it from nagging at the driver. The feature mentioned in the article would be used if regulation increased to require the car use a camera/similar system to determine if a driver is inattentive while autopilot is enabled.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#347

Post by kbenson »

Silhouette wrote: post #325
kbenson wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. Except I was, and I did. And now I can recognize the signs that weren't obvious before, so I don't anymore. You're saying there's no way, and I'm giving you a concrete example of an instance. > It's not as if it's a close thing where one minute you're alert and driving responsibly and the…

I've been driving for decades, and I've had many of the problems other comments have mentioned that make life tough, and yet to my knowledge I have never fallen asleep at the wheel or caused any sort of accident. There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements. And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognise that you w…

> There certainly have been a few times when I was expecting to drive but clearly wasn't fit to and had to make other arrangements.

My example (and experience) wasn't about starting to drive. It was about being 4 hours into a 7-8 hour drive. The slow degradation of attention while sitting in a static position while watching static scenery go by for hours at a time.

> And, in the gentlest possible way, if you were unable to recognize that you were so tired that you were likely to fall asleep while driving and make another choice, you were demonstrably unfit to drive at that time.

Part of being unfit is sometimes not easily recognizing you're unfit. If you start in a perfectly fine shape, but degrade slowly over time, it can be hard to note the exact moment when things have gotten to a point where you should stop. And the whole point of my post was that recognizing this point, especially if it's over time and a slow degradation, can be hard if you've never experienced it before.

> I can't argue rationally against such an irresponsible and selfish position

Well, I don't think the people in this little corner of the discussion it are arguing that. People definitely shouldn't drive while impaired. I just think we should also consider, and see if there's a way to help, people that don't have enough experience to know when they're flirting with that state, for whatever reason it may be. Hopefully that at least some people here aren't arguing for allowing impaired people to drive is some consolation and reduces your stress at least a little. :/

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#348

Post by godelski »

echelon wrote: post #191
kryogen1c wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

> what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. It's not. We're talking about people's lives. I've felt tired before and you know what I do? I nap in the parking lot. Because the remote chance I kill or maim myself or someone else is not worth the momentary discomfort. It's not fun, and sometimes people harass you, but it's far better than driving drowsy. > reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork…

The problem here is structural.

> None of that is an excuse to get behind a many thousand pound piece of equipment and not be able to control it.

The choice many people are presented with is: Get in car while tired vs miss a day of work and get fired.

That's it. They have no option of public transportation, walking, no other option. It is pretty obvious what action people are going to choose. So the solution here is to make sure that people aren't put into that position. We could talk about autonomous vehicles, work from home, flex hours, etc. But the fact is that when you present people with this choice you should expect them to choose driving while tired. This does not mean that it is safe or what they should do. This is not condoning the action. This is just saying that we should expect people to make that choice.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#349

Post by matheusmoreira »

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

F-16 autopilot saving an unconscious pilot's life:

https://youtu.be/WkZGL7RQBVw

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#350

Post by [deleted] »

ggreer wrote: post #238
cma wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do other people use illuminated IR cameras then? Aren't they looking for decent gaze direction detection, etc.? Isn't it unsafe to drive with a ton of light from the giant LCD, etc.? I would have though they would dim that and/or have a night mode with inverted UI colors.

Have you looked at footage from Tesla cameras at night? They have higher dynamic range than the human eye and they're very sensitive. They can see stars. The LCD changes its brightness automatically. It also changes from light to dark mode (inverted UI colors) based on the time of day. Still an LCD showing black will leak some light, and as I said those cameras are pretty damn sensitive.

[deleted]
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