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Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

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Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#241

Post by irrational »

echelon wrote: post #112
ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep!

So, I should never drive? Not OP, but I experience the same thing. Driving just makes me tired. I've tried running A/C at full cold, caffeine, loud music, audiobooks, etc. Nothing helps. The strange thing is, outside of driving I don't get tired or want to fall asleep except at bedtime. I don't drive when I'm drowsy. Driving make me drowsy. The bad thing about it is I usually don't realize that I'm getting sleepy until after I've dozed off once. Then I've got to keep myself awake long enough to get to the next rest stop. 20 minute nap and I'm good to go for another few hours.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#242

Post by Mirioron »

arcticfox wrote: post #167
orf wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a truism that doesn’t add anything. You know when you’re tired, and when a comfy warm enclosure might make you fall asleep. In such situations driving like that is as bad as driving drunk. Don’t do it.

IMO your statement is the truism that isn't adding anything. Obviously people that might fall asleep shouldn't drive. But this is a matter of degree. Everyone might fall asleep and it's a risk everyone will eventually take even in a small degree. Some people are always somewhat tired (eg sleep apnea or CFS), some people aren't tired when they start driving but become impaired at some point. Some people might have an…

>But this is a matter of degree.

This is it. I don't understand why this isn't higher up in the discussion.

Do you check whether your brakes work every time before setting off? Do you check whether your wheels are attached properly every time before setting off? There are a million things that could break on your car. They're just very unlikely to happen.

Pilots/maintenance crew for planes checks that kind of stuff for virtually every flight. We accept this small risk with cars. In return we get an enormous increase in efficiency. If everyone had to do a 5 minute check on their car every time before setting off, then that would be a lot of productive time spent on it.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#243

Post by Silhouette »

simmanian wrote: post #225
Silhouette wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, that like drunk driving, the person making the call doesn't always have the experience to know when they are impaired, or how close they are to falling asleep. Then they can follow the same rule as for overtaking: if in doubt, don't. It's not complicated. There is no way you are tired enough to be actually falling asleep without realising you're far too tired to be driving safely. It's not as if it's…

Have you ever dozed off on the road? I ask because unless you've experienced it, it would probably catch you completely off guard as well. Sometimes the part of your brain that would normally make you aware that you're falling asleep is the first to go. I think this happens more while driving because you think you're concentrating on driving but really your brain is shutting off bit by bit until you're finally at a p…

The thing is, to be susceptible to that kind of effect, a normal adult -- meaning one without an underlying medical condition -- would already have to be very short of good quality sleep and/or doing foolish things like driving for several hours at night without taking a break. It is not normal to be susceptible to just dozing off at the wheel without realising like that. If you are in that position, you should be aware of it, and should not be driving; you have just explained exactly why.

The kinds of medical conditions that do make sudden dozing off normal for a few unfortunate people are grounds for refusing to issue a driving licence to those people in most places, for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#244

Post by zingermc »

irrational wrote: post #241
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! So, I should never drive? Not OP, but I experience the same thing. Driving just makes me tired. I've tried running A/C at full cold, caffeine, loud music, audiobooks, etc. Nothing helps. The strange thing is, outside of driving I don't get tired or want to fall asleep except at bedtime. I don't drive when I'm drowsy. Driving make me drows…

> So, I should never drive?

> The bad thing about it is I usually don't realize that I'm getting sleepy until after I've dozed off once.

I'm not trying to be rude, but this sounds reckless. You absolutely should not be driving while you have this issue. Also, consider that you may have a sleep disorder.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#246

Post by scarmig »

Silhouette wrote: post #206
missosoup wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how real life works. It's dangerous for everyone to drive and in the future manual driving will be as legal as riding horses on highways is today. People do potentially deadly risk reward calculus all the time. And of all potentially deadly things that people regularly do to crack down on, this one would have a pretty huge negative ROI for society. This issue impacts a non-trivial percentage of the populat…

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so? If…

> You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so?

Yes? There are even millions of people who drive drunk every year, which is a far more conscious choice to endanger other people than someone driving home after long, late shift.

15 million people work a night shift. If 10% of them drive home drowsy one night per year, you're already at millions.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#247

Post by buzzerbetrayed »

irrational wrote: post #241
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! So, I should never drive? Not OP, but I experience the same thing. Driving just makes me tired. I've tried running A/C at full cold, caffeine, loud music, audiobooks, etc. Nothing helps. The strange thing is, outside of driving I don't get tired or want to fall asleep except at bedtime. I don't drive when I'm drowsy. Driving make me drows…

> So, I should never drive?

As other people have said.. yes, you should never drive until you get this issue taken care of.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#248

Post by matthewmacleod »

irrational wrote: post #241
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! So, I should never drive? Not OP, but I experience the same thing. Driving just makes me tired. I've tried running A/C at full cold, caffeine, loud music, audiobooks, etc. Nothing helps. The strange thing is, outside of driving I don't get tired or want to fall asleep except at bedtime. I don't drive when I'm drowsy. Driving make me drows…

No, you should never drive.

I appreciate that this sucks if you live in an environment that requires you to drive, but you are way too blasé about something that runs a decent risk of killing someone, and is absolutely not normal.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#249

Post by Silhouette »

quicklyfrozen wrote: post #223
Silhouette wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This purist notion of 'they should never be allowed to drive a car, for everyone else's protection' crumbles at the most trivial examination when you consider that you're talking about leaving millions of people jobless or in significantly worse quality of life conditions You contend that there are millions of people who knowingly drive while tired enough to fall asleep at the wheel and with a history of doing so? If…

You've never had a bad night's sleep? Never had to make a longish unexpected trip because of a family emergency? Never had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet? In this case, if the person isn't able to get disability b/c of their condition, I can't fault them for doing what they need to survive. I don't like that it puts others at risk, and hope they are taking steps to reduce the risk. Detection technology that alerts…

You've never had a bad night's sleep? Never had to make a longish unexpected trip because of a family emergency? Never had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet?

I've had to do all of those things. At some times in my life, I've had the first and last for an extended period. To my knowledge, I have never as a result driven in a condition that made me unsafe behind the wheel, though.

Yours is another comment that talks about people doing what they need to do to survive, which is an ironic characterisation given we're talking about behaviour that is borderline suicidal.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#250

Post by echelon »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #219
echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

This is such a bad take. If a system can help prevent accidents due to drowsiness, it's a net positive. There are plenty of reasons to be drowsy and still have to show up to work/commute: Maybe you have a newborn at home, and... Got a bad sleep. Or were woken up by a fire alarm. Or maybe you're just drowsy in the mornings, like me! I used to have a real easy 35 minute drive to work, on a single, straight road with a…

While this technology can help prevent some percentage of accidents under the existing regime, it will likely lead to some population of drivers putting more faith in the technology and becoming more reckless.

It's hard to say if there will be more or fewer accidents as this becomes prevalent. I'm wary of it by default given the already prevalent incidence of DUI and sleepy driving. Those individuals seem likely to use this as an excuse or crutch. I'd be happy to be surprised.

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