Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#171

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #137

falcolas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like how they blamed the "gore" death on the driver for not having his hands on the wheel? The data showed that the "hands on the wheel" alert preceded the crash by 8 minutes. Tesla will absolutely use any data you send them to attack you, especially if you have the bad taste to die in their car with autopilot active.

What data did they release from any accident? If you're going to keep spamming the comments of this thread with claims that Tesla releases the data it collects, you need to support those claims. Tesla has never released the data from an accident. They only release their assessment of the data to authorities and authorities have decided whether to communicate that to the public.

Tesla's public statement as posted in their blog:

> The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week%E2%80%99s-accide...

This is from March 30 2018 (the accident occurred on March 23). The NTSB and Tesla dissolved the commitment to investigate in parallel as a consequence of this premature release of data in an attempt to exonerate themselves.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229518/tesla-ntsb-autop...

It's also quite telling that part of Tesla's statement to the press at that time included of the following:

> Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect ... yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location

The NTSB report didn't come out until Feb 11, 2020.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20200211.as...

Tesla absolutely intentionally released log data on their own.

EDIT: "If you're going to keep spamming the comments of this thread" This was both unnecessary and untrue. With this comment, I'm up to a grand total of two comments in this entire article's discussion thread.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#172

Post by kerng » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

Maybe a warning system to tell you to stop driving might be better?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#173

Post by bArray » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #99

bArray wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll quote my other comment here: > The _joke_ was that it mentions "DARK" as a method of > detecting whether somebody is damaging a vehicle: > > CEO Elon Musk said that it would be used to prevent people > > from vandalizing cars when they are being driven > > automatically on Tesla’s upcoming self-driving robotaxi > > network. > The _joke_ was that if removed from context, somebody could > insinuate that they are m…

I think I see what you're saying - but the replies didn't accuse you of thinking it referenced black people. They disagreed that it is an example of something which is likely enough to be misinterpreted that it should have had a different name.

I thought that the implication of a connection between persons identified as "DARK" and vehicle damage had enough potential to be misinterpreted (either accidentally or maliciously).

It was just a throwaway comment that people have taken quite seriously.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#174

Post by kerng » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

Maybe a warning system to tell you to stop driving might be better? I believe such systems that track your eye movement actually exist already

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#175

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

dkonofalski wrote: post #137

falcolas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like how they blamed the "gore" death on the driver for not having his hands on the wheel? The data showed that the "hands on the wheel" alert preceded the crash by 8 minutes. Tesla will absolutely use any data you send them to attack you, especially if you have the bad taste to die in their car with autopilot active.

What data did they release from any accident? If you're going to keep spamming the comments of this thread with claims that Tesla releases the data it collects, you need to support those claims. Tesla has never released the data from an accident. They only release their assessment of the data to authorities and authorities have decided whether to communicate that to the public.

Last I checked, releasing a summary of selective data points from a vehicle's recording device is...releasing data.

Tesla may not release all of the data (and it's clear from their selection of data that they do not), but they definitely do release some data.

Indeed, Tesla's release of data is worse than nothing, because they only release data that slanders the deceased drivers when autopilot was the cause of the crashes in all cases.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#176

Post by wow_yes » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #169

echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

Some people don't have that privilege. Ever known someone that works two jobs trying to make ends meet? You don't have a choice except to drive home from work.

Take the bus

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#177

Post by t-writescode » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

wow_yes wrote: post #176

root_axis wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people don't have that privilege. Ever known someone that works two jobs trying to make ends meet? You don't have a choice except to drive home from work.

Take the bus

Some people don’t have that privilege either.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#178

Post by M2Ys4U » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #107

fudged71 wrote: post #46

Tesla has a history of using remote diagnostics to snitch on drivers instead of allowing investigators to do their job. It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you. These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might b…

> These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might be flagged as inattentive during an autopilot crash and therefore at fault? I'm not understanding your point here, and you seem to contradict yourself a little bit. A driver with a disability that makes them inattentive ca…

>A driver with a disability that makes them inattentive can't be a "safe driver."

A driver with a disability that makes a computer system classify them as an inattentive driver is not the same thing as a driver with a disability that makes them inattentive.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#179

Post by konschubert » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:00 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #169

echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

Some people don't have that privilege. Ever known someone that works two jobs trying to make ends meet? You don't have a choice except to drive home from work.

You can try to emigrate to a richer country, you can try to reduce your expenses, you move in with relatives, you can sleep in the car. These are all terrible choices but endangering other people is also a choice.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#180

Post by wobblyasp » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #166

echelon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do. You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep! You shouldn't be driving. Period. This is incredibly dangerous and puts innocent people at risk. No technology should compensate for this. We don't design technology to help drivers under the influence feel better about their driving. Please don't get beh…

> You shouldn't be driving. Period. what a stunningly pretentious and ignorant thing to say. reasons to be tired and drive: rotating shiftwork, working multiple jobs, caring for a newborn, caring for the sick. that covers millions of people, off the top of my head, without doing any research. and those are only the most black-and-white examples. more ambiguous cases include: driving from physical activity like OP men…

> "You should never get behind the wheel if there's a chance you'll fall asleep!" is an absurd thing to say.

No it isn't? We expect drivers to be able to react to situations that can arise when your driving a ton of metal and plastic. 24 hours w/o sleep is equivalent to having a BAC ~0.1%; well above the legal limit. Sure; most people aren't staying up 24 hours and going for a cross-country road trip, but you need to be aware of what affect is has on your ability to operate (https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/about_sleep/drowsy_driving.html)