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Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

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Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#381

Post by gumby »

alkonaut wrote: post #268
gumby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolerance for risk by entrepreneurs is low too. I used to read the German blog ,,Gründerszene’’ — “founder scene” but all the companies they covered were just retail shops without a physical presence: organic oats on the web! Nothing technical and nothing high growth. Tragic.

If I were to start my business, that's what I'd set out to do though. I'd want to start a company that could grow from just me, to maybe 10 people in 10 years. Doing round the clock coding and VC pitches hoping to be sold to Google to me seems like a nightmare compared to trying to make a cereal store on the web with products I really enjoy. This isn't just risk aversion, it's really that the tiny changce of being a…

Then it's simply a business. Nothing wrong with that but calling your local grill or clothes shop a "startup" turns the term into just a synonym for "small business".

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#382

Post by pc86 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147
Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

This is why it's a feature that the original design of the US was a loose federation of independent states, with an intentionally very weak and restricted federal government. States are free to try different modes of governance and different levels of regulation, different levels of pro-employer or pro-employee legislation, etc. Ideally other states see what works and adopt the better models over time, and continue experimentation. For whatever reason though states seem very reluctant to take the stuff that is obviously working in another state and apply it at home, particularly when what is obviously working is the opposite of their system which isn't.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#383

Post by mceldeen »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147
Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

I have always deeply deeply disliked non-compete clauses. The only thing that I could come up with is that it’s akin to indentured servitude. But this is much more eloquent way of putting it in language that the businesses and politicians would understand. Thank you.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#384

Post by mooreds »

christophilus wrote: post #353
toomanybeersies wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or are developers paid a disproportionate wage in comparison to other jobs? Why should a software developer get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, while those who weren't lucky enough to be born with the required intelligence (despite what coding bootcamps say, not everyone is cut out to write code) are doomed to work a low-wage job for their entire life? It's the height of privilege. And if you subscribe…

I think part of it is that a builder’s work has no leverage behind it. A day of work might positively affect the 5 or so people whose house was repaired. A day of software development may impact millions of people.

Yes, this. Compared to a lot of other building professions, software engineers have higher leverage (the same effort can benefit more people). Other careers I'd put in that same boat:

* authors * artists * judges * motivational speakers

The difference is that I think leverage is more diffuse for software engineers, and it doesn't require fame.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#385

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

mikro2nd wrote: post #333
travisjungroth wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/130493861651941... The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town . If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try to do any of the other parts…

>The recipe for success of Silicon Valley... You seem to have left out "Tons of government money funding early electronics and aerospace development"... a bootstrap factor that should not be forgotten.

Lots of places had lots of government money funding.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#386

Post by kamaal »

sandGorgon wrote: post #305
kamaal wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>this is a civil case. this is not criminal. there is no police. That is in theory. In reality people in power have more than sufficient means to intimidate you and bring you trouble. >>the onus is on the company to go to court and do this. And this gets rejected. because indian courts have rejected non-competes as a matter of policy. That is if you decide to stay put despite all this for years and fight it out. Als…

i see what you are saying and categorically (but politely) refuse what you are saying. whether you want to take it or not is upto you. India is far far more employee friendly than Europe and most parts of US. The point of what you are talking about from a legal system is inapplicable to labor laws. I can throw the same Black-Lives-Matters issues in US courts to you and ask you to go and check New York courts for the…

The US courts aren't as much burdened as India's mostly because the society in US works with relatively high degree of fairness, merit and justice in the system. For this reason there is also immense trust in the system. Its not exactly 100% but its high compared to India. I have personally lived there and it works for the most part. It is possible to impeach a president in US on grounds of merit. Try doing this in India without triggering a pogrom, or a major civil strife.

They don't have land sharks raiding and occupying lands illegally, or people faking documents to sell the same lands to 10 people, like its common in Bangalore. The system as a whole doesn't have as much fraud, dishonesty and cheating as much as India. When you have this your courts don't get flooded with pointless cases, which shouldn't even exist at the first place. This allows the courts to focus on real issues, and helps fast track clearance of cases and quick delivery of judgement. You won't have this in India until the society as a whole reforms and moves towards developing universal qualities of merit, fairness and justice. Im not talking of enforcing them, but these values existing and being respected in our society as a part of our culture.

>>India is far far more employee friendly than Europe and most parts of US.

Not even remotely close.

>>There is exactly zero cases of employees have lawsuits by their employers.

Hard fact! That's for a simple reason, these employees don't matter :-). Most hop jobs every 1 - 1.5 years. Until you land a big cheque from the VCs. Then you rewrite your systems anyway.

By the time you settle your case over a decade they might have hopped like 7 companies. The original case is largely meaningless.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#387

Post by stickfigure »

aden1ne wrote: post #275
stickfigure wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of places with a Mediterranean climate.

A Mediterranean climate is actually pretty rare in the world. The only large areas with a Mediterranean climate are the actual Mediterranean, the US West Coast, and some parts of Australia. Apart from that there are only a few scattered spots with a Mediterranean climate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Mediterr...

Compared to total land mass, sure. But (as that map clearly shows) most Mediterranean climate is not in California. If it's just about the climate, there are plenty of options.

...or more likely, the weather is not a critical issue.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#388

Post by regulation_d »

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

For a pretty length defense of this thesis (specifically comparing SV with Route 128), see Ronald Gilson's article, The Legal Infrastructure of High Technology Industrial Districts [1].

And for a more global perspective see Anupam Chander's How Law Made Silicon Valley [2].

[1]: https://www.nyulawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/NYUL...

[2]: https://law.emory.edu/elj/content/volume-63/issue-3/articles...

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#389

Post by pc86 »

avereveard wrote: post #190
travisjungroth wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/130493861651941... The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town . If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try to do any of the other parts…

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

Inventions from centuries past notwithstanding, what universities does Italy have that are in the same league as Stanford and Wharton?

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#390

Post by superice »

donor20 wrote: post #168
DetroitThrow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Labor mobility is really low in Europe Like the other comment mentioned, this is a very France-centric description - in the Netherlands, for example, you can't block workers from leaving their company in this way.

In the netherlands you can have them sign a non-compete clause, generally for 1 to 2 years. "This clause prevents them from working for your competitor or from starting a similar enterprise after resigning. A non-solicitation clause forbids your employee to contact your clients after resigning." https://business.gov.nl/regulation/non-compete-clause/ In the US, lots of folks have famously started up their own ideas if…

Yeah, so this is mostly unenforceable. Dutch law prescribes that a non-compete can never block you from practicing your profession as a whole, so at most it can block you from working in a very specific, limited sector of the market (e.g. direct competitors). The burden of proof seems to be on the previous employer to show that you potentially could do damage by working at your new employer. In addition to that, non-competes added to a limited time contract are invalid by definition. Non-competes should also be limited in time to a reasonable duration (commonly understood to be 2 years)

It's much easier to instate a 'relationship'-clause in Dutch employment contracts, where you forbid ex-employees from contacting customers/suppliers at their new employer in a professional fashion. Those are much easier to enforce.

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