Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#361

Post by edoloughlin » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:30 PM UTC

travisjungroth wrote: post #169

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/130493861651941... The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town . If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try to do any of the other parts…

So they’ll say “they have accelerators!” and open a city sponsored accelerator and maybe some successful company will pop out in the next ten years.

...and promptly relocate to Silicon Valley.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#362

Post by ghaff » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:36 PM UTC

atraac wrote: post #355

piokoch wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that forbidding non-competence clause was really a big factor in Silicon Valley success. This sounds a little bit to simple. I was reading that it was all about initial founding from the military, access to large capital investments, proximity of good universities and existence of whole ecosystem targeted into making creation of startups easier. In Poland non-competence exists too, but in theory - it can…

It's worth noting that it depends on employment contract in Poland. Rules (if any) are different for B2B(freelance) contracts. Also NCA itself can differ, from forbidding to work with other companies, or simply forbidding you to poach clients(I've only ever seen this one in use).

>simply forbidding you to poach clients

Which my understanding is you can absolutely do in California as well.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#363

Post by emteycz » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:38 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #286

boc wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, protectionism is a dangerous road. If the EU blocked American tech companies, the US would retaliate in kind. While it's possible that Europe could eventually become self-sustaining if given a friendly environment to grow indigenous tech companies, losing access to every major OS overnight (as just a small example of the potential retaliation) would be a pretty devastating experience for Europe. You can't repl…

It already exists, there are tariffs for American vehicles entering Europe and the US for instance. >losing access to every major OS overnight That wouldn't really be in America's interest would it?

I don't think we would lose access to the Finnish operating system Linux, also

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#364

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:40 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #309

avereveard wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

Second world war pretty much made Europe much poorer than US. At the same time, Silicon valley a) was not wrecked by war b) had extravagant funding by US state c) had direct access to the (already then) remarkable US market. So it's not just the current conditions, need to look at history as well.

And the marschal plan laid the basis for the German Wirtschaftswunder and made Germany the industrial powerhouse it was for quite a long time.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#365

Post by Reimersholme » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:43 PM UTC

secondcoming wrote: post #358

rcpt wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lisbon maybe getting there

I think Lisbon was on the radar a few years ago, but I get the impression it may have blown it. According to folk I know who were looking at it, they had issues with the 'work ethic' of locals (read into that what you will) and high tax.

I don't know about start-ups, but I think Portugal in general is still growing in attraction for remote workers. Great climate, still cheap and beneficial tax laws.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#366

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:43 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Of course it would also apply the other way around - if some Apple employees decided to leave and start their own competitive VR project, Apple would be just fine with that.

Wouldn't it?

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#367

Post by C1sc0cat » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:47 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

"our town" FFS that attitude is why the USA needs one set of employment laws

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#368

Post by C1sc0cat » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:48 PM UTC

peteri wrote: post #351

C1sc0cat wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NC and restrictive covenants are not "highly enforceable" in the UK, I do not know where you got that idea from. Limited NC for v senior people for short periods possibly - and by v senior I mean board level.

They are relatively enforceable as part of a compromise agreement. However the last one I signed was quite restricted in that it was for 12 months and only listed 4 direct competitors. Normally the companies lawyer tries for more and your lawyer tells them to get real. If you don't sign the agreement I suspect a lot of the time you'll just have to do gardening leave for the rest of your contract. Also don't forget if…

And if those 4 competitors are the industry? and 12 months you where had mate (unless your a C level )

Your right about trade secrets though.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#369

Post by csunbird » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #57

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

> Which is why Silicon Valley is in California I don't think that's the reason -- California's labor market hasn't always been so fair and for that reason it makes complete sense why the court ruled in Apple's favor. Apple, Google, Adobe and some other companies used to have anti-poaching agreements with each other. But, then the courts found that to be unfair to the labor market (people) and the companies settled fo…

the $415m is kind of a slap on the wrist, the amount of benefit gained by those companies is probably a lot higher.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#370

Post by Reimersholme » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #349

CPLX wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And still, we don't have anything near to SV over here. You don’t? I mean, Germany is a technology powerhouse, with arguably the best engineering sector on the planet. It just has a different set of technology products than Silicon Valley. If I were a public policy leader interested in building a more durable, equitable economy for my citizens I would gladly choose the German model.

True that. We seem to struggle so to get all that power on the road for quite some time: - TVs: Went first to Japan and then Korea then China - Cameras: Went to japan - MP3: Went to the US - Cars: We totally missed the trend to EVs - Big engineering projects: Pretty bad track record so far, e.g. the Berlin airport. German companies are still supplying components and sub-systems to these projects worldwide, but they a…

"Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland" as Merkel put it in 2013.

In general, Germany is very conservative and unwilling to change, but in recent years I think the digitalisation has started to take off and get some more strategic support from the government (at least 25 years too late, but anyhow).

On the bright side, Berlin being so cheap for a long time and having such a great cultural life has enabled it to become one of the better start-up scenes in Europe, and I do think it will continue to grow in importance. Besides the 'native' start-ups, Amazon is expanding heavily, Tesla is opening up a factory and Google seem to slowly be increasing their presence, etc...