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Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

arstechnica.com

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Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#301

Post by PedroBatista »

smhost wrote: post #109
dokem wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t there rules imposed in F1 to keep the technology relevant to industry? Why can’t F1 evolve towards electric with new rules?

In "As We Go Green", the guy who founded Formula E made it seem like there was some internal politics among FIA leadership that was resisting green tech for whatever reason, and now that Formula E is a thing, it doesn't make sense for F1 to try to catch up.

Formula E is a thing because “E is the future” and all manufacturers don’t want to miss out. From a racing and entertainment point of view it’s absolute dog shit. It will die out if it can’t survive by their own merits once the electric novelty wades.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#302

Post by secondcoming »

W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

There are karting videos on youtube and that's actually far more entertaining than modern F1

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#303

Post by NLMichel »

gonzo41 wrote: post #101
mhh__ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla killing F1 is a conclusion too far. The success of electric vehicles makes the calculus less good, but it's just another term in the equation for a company doing business in F1. Honda are still in other ICE motorsports. I think it's worth pointing out that Honda staying this long was a surprise in itself because, to be blunt, they were absolutely awful in their first years and no better than their rivals now. A…

Shouldn't F1 cars be about finding the peak of a X engineering problem. For electiric's it's not as much about speed but battery. Maybe having hyper-miler distance races that aren't speed oriented is the sort of pivot F1 should be doing? I know it's not sexy like a fast car moving nimbly among the pack but if car companies can get their tech focused on getting the most distance from a battery then there's the cross o…

What about full electric F1 cars, but where they switch out batteries four times during the race during pit stops. High speed racing without the need to carry a heavy battery pack.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#304

Post by bosie »

rogy wrote: post #295
bosie wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't F1's unbalanced finances nothing compared to other sports though? i.e. tennis. federer has completely different opportunities compared to a top 75 player. did it kill the tennis sport and/or is it killing the sport? you could argue that way given that it is always the same folks winning the big tournaments

But Tennis isn't dictated on who has the most billions to invest in new technologies, its pretty limited to the amount of money you can spend on coaching.

kind of. coaching is probably peanuts compared to the rest.

physios (and all other folks) that fly with you. first class and private flights (hilarious that the top players are flown on the tournament dime to the tournaments), perfect nutrition (potentially with personal chefs), nutritionists, drugs or drug therapies, surgeries, preventative medicine etc. staying in a topnotch hotel for two or three weeks prior to a grandslam tournament to get accustomed to the location and time zone.... the list goes on and on.

federer can spend 5 million on it per year without notiicing it. the world number 100? probably 20k.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#305

Post by Qwertious »

hvidgaard wrote: post #204
lmm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t understand why EVs can’t have their place as personal and commercial vehicles and racing can keep ICEs in competition vehicles. I'm sure ICE racing will continue in one form or another, but Formula 1 is enormously expensive; manufacturers justify it in terms of the prestige it brings them and the R&D work that can trickle-down into road cars. If the engine technology is completely different then both of tho…

The teams use less than $50 million on engines yearly. The remainder of the budget is spend on the cars chassis, aero, suspension ect. That cost would not go away with a switch to an electric power train.

Q: Are chassis/aero/suspension innovations relevant to ICE cars? If so, would they still be relevant to EVs given that EVs have different constraints (e.g. EVs have a different weight distribution to ICE cars, as batteries are heavy and non-moving, whereas (SPECULATION) fuel tanks have fuel sloshing around inside like a bathtub)?

Formula 1 chasses are way different to standard car chasses so presumably yes, but it really seems like an assumption to be careful about.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#306

Post by secondcoming »

rocqua wrote: post #267
mdoms wrote: post #150

I have a theory that F1 is motorsport for people with no interest in motorsport. You can't possibly watch it for the racing, in a series where 90 minute races routinely end with over 25 seconds between each podium car. Where the fanbase fanatically opposes things like simplified powertrains, simplified aero and control parts, which would all result in far better, closer racing but would (in their minds) erode the pre…

I watch F1 for the drama, the story. It is not a fair battle test of drivers. It is an epic struggle between drivers, teams, manufacturers, and even the F1 organization itself. It would be nice if the racing were closer. Because closer racing means more of a struggle. But taking away the difference between teams would take away more of the narrative. Is Verstappen staying with Red-bull now that Honda is gone? Is repl…

In my mind you're describing a soap opera.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#307

Post by nemo44x »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #261
nemo44x wrote: post #75

Auto racing will just never be the same. I don’t even think EV racing will evolve the sport. The golden days of auto racing involved real innovation like creating super chargers, turbos, certain efficiencies, and improvements in potting, etc. There was a time when we just didn’t know what could be done to build an engine that could run near the edge without blowing. I don’t think EV will ever have its equivalent. Jus…

People still race horses, just saying. I don't think the entertainment value of driving loud and exciting cars will massively change but it's rapidly becoming a nostalgic thing. What is changing is that ICE based car racing is becoming merely an expensive hobby rather than a business relevant thing for engine manufacturers to be spending money on. The money is solidly in the EV market. That's where essentially all of…

Yeah I mentioned horses at the end of my comment. I think the big difference is horse racing isn’t so much entertainment for enthusiasts as it is a gambling endeavor. If we took the ability to wager on each race I’m not sure it would exist.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#308

Post by tobr »

notnap wrote: post #233
Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

Please go and check this Ferrari season. You are in for a s🅱️in

Huh, this is the first time I’ve seen an emoji on HN. I thought they were filtered out.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#309

Post by rocqua »

secondcoming wrote: post #306
rocqua wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watch F1 for the drama, the story. It is not a fair battle test of drivers. It is an epic struggle between drivers, teams, manufacturers, and even the F1 organization itself. It would be nice if the racing were closer. Because closer racing means more of a struggle. But taking away the difference between teams would take away more of the narrative. Is Verstappen staying with Red-bull now that Honda is gone? Is repl…

In my mind you're describing a soap opera.

In some sense yes, but it is real instead of based on a script.

It is actual reality TV without any manufactured drama, and with an actual resistance to manufactured drama.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#310

Post by manojlds »

faichai wrote: post #272
neor wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the agreement is that Ferrari engineers are helping the FIA to police the other engines. The engineers on the payroll at the FIA don't have the time/resources/knowledge to judge the legality of these insanely complex powertrains. All manufacturers were forced earlier this year to provide detailed info about their Energy Recovery Systems, rumors are that Ferrari suspects the Mercedes ERS to make use of loophol…

Source? I find it hard to believe FIA would give Ferrari privileged access to other teams data.

Teams give FIA the data and Ferrari gives pointers and other help. The sensitive data is not shared with Ferrari.
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