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Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

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Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#251

Post by lifeisstillgood »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147
Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

It's worth noting that there are a number of other similar reactions from a European point of view

- You allow Trade Unions in your company? But how do you keep their noses to the grindstone?

- You have workers representatives on the board? How, what, where ... that's crazy !

Of course regulating to force this to happen often has unintended consequences, but then ending non-competes in Wisconsin might not lead to the next Silicon Valley either.

But we should still do it.

(I think my best explanation is that I don't look like Chris Hemsworth, but eating healthy, regular exercise and good lighting in photos will certainly improve my situation, even if the "next Silicon Valley / film stardom" is not within reach. )

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#252

Post by alkonaut »

garbagetime wrote: post #157
reader_mode wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK is trying hard not to be a part of Europe it seems :) Anyway I've seen similar laws in several countries in EU, but I talked to a lawyer friend and he said he looked into it (briefly) and couldn't find examples of it being enforced through court in my country (Croatia). As for termination - probation periods exist for sure but passed that it's really hard to get rid of people, the two year thing exists if you give…

>UK is trying hard not to be a part of Europe it seems In what sense?

Not least the legal system (Common law) feels quite foreign to me. Labor laws are more US-like. Just two examples.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#253

Post by jlokier »

0xfaded wrote: post #242
jlokier wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was last made redundant, in the UK, the notice period was 1 month and there was no redundancy payment. They let me go just before 2 years of employment, when a redundancy payout would have started. I don't think there would have been a longer notice period after 2 years, just a payout. It was legitimate redundancy because they let go of a number of people at the same time. So it wasn't personally targeted, tho…

Wow, thanks for sharing. One month up until 2 years is surprisingly good for outside the US. Do you feel the decision to terminate you then may have been linked to your impending protections after two years?

> Do you feel the decision to terminate you then may have been linked to your impending protections after two years?

Yes I do because it was so close to the 2 years, and that did leave me feeling slightly cynical.

But I wouldn't call it "protection", because the only benefit would have been a small cash payout, worth a lot to me, but small relative to the company's ongoing salary bill for people staying behind, so easily affordable to them.

That led to financial hardship for a little while, but I recovered, set up as self-employed, and to be honest I was glad of the new freedoms to work on my own projects from then on.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#254

Post by donor20 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #180
donw wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people are often irrational. Dilbert's pointy-haired boss resonates with a lot of office workers for a reason. We've all had, or at least heard about, that boss who was utterly incompetent, who masked that incompetence in self-important blustering, and who were physically unable to listen to the rank-and-file. Regulation is and should be there to deal with the abusers, and not with the companies that do, in f…

If only we could fire the pointy haired boss.

In California you can - non-competes are basically unenforceable, and what you have in your head you can basically use. So you fire them by getting another job.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#255

Post by LoSboccacc »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #199
avereveard wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

Italy is a really interesting case for me as the birthplace of the renaissance. What happened there? And when? For an interesting deep dive into the role of Government in innovation there is a report from Price-Waterhouse Cooper[1] that I found interesting if a bit jargon laden :-). But it definitely calls out for a public/private partnership to be successful. I think governmental and banking stability has hurt Italy…

the Italian industrialization crisis case isn't that hard to crack: there are many factors leading to it, for sure, but the central choke point was the subdivision(=lottizzazione? I don't think subdivision really renders the term) of banks for local political interests.

the push from local industries to large conglomerates to global multinationals was sustained by a strong economy and easy access to large banking institution that could finance their operations at reasonable risk for themselves.

the small local banks in Italy could never sustain such a growth, and production remained local, with few notable exception.

sure politicking, corruption and mafia had a part in it, as they will reduce competitiveness of a company compared to others having none of such issues (i.e. the state deciding where to build factories based on unemployment and not efficiency) but a large enough company can absorb that in the bottom line and continue operating.

Medium companies are, however, completely suffocated from this.

the Italian startup stagnation is more confounding, but my personal belief is that it's likely a result of the absurd taxation the middle class gets. It's basically impossible to build up any saving to start entrepreneurship around here, as everything in welfare comes from the middle class. And existing entrepreneurs have little incentive in branching off to new unexplored areas. Without the fuel and ferment from solo founders making it, there's no culture and no substrate to fall into if a business fails. Everyone is just grabbing at their own chair, hoping not to be knocked into poverty by the next round of financial crises.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#256

Post by alkonaut »

tubularhells wrote: post #209
donor20 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the netherlands you can have them sign a non-compete clause, generally for 1 to 2 years. "This clause prevents them from working for your competitor or from starting a similar enterprise after resigning. A non-solicitation clause forbids your employee to contact your clients after resigning." https://business.gov.nl/regulation/non-compete-clause/ In the US, lots of folks have famously started up their own ideas if…

Those non competes cannot be enforced under EU law of free movement of labour.

Exactly. If I read my contract carefully I'm sure it has clauses saying I can't compete for N months, and that everyting I create on weekends no matter how unrelated (A hobby piece of software, a novel, a pop song...) is immediately the IP of my employer no matter which equipment I use or if anyone asked me to create it.

All of that is obviously non-enforcable nonsense.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#257

Post by donor20 »

Galanwe wrote: post #175
donor20 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labor mobility is really low in Europe. In france you can be tied up in litigation (tribunel through appeals) for 10 years easily on an employment termination (my info is from 2016 time frame so may be dated). There is no such thing as at-will employment. Also, noncompete's are weird. If someone is receiving full pay on gardening leave they can work for someone else. If you instead have them work till end of notice p…

IANAL, but French, working in the hedge fund industry since a while, and had numerous non-compete clauses over time. Also have had some experience negotiating then from employee and employer perspective. The French landscape is a bit more subtle that what you mention here. The first thing to understand is that everything in your contract is not always 100% legally applicable, and companies play with this idea. The lo…

Thanks, very helpful! The tribunals decisions (which have employees on them) can be appealed to courts can't they?

My point - in California this isn't even a question. There is no need to negotiate. It's a matter of both policy and law that you can get another job.

In Europe there is a lot more careful thinking, a great thing actually I think in areas of social safety net, public / govt function etc.

Startups with 2-3 folks are just not well equipped for the EU intricacies - look at GPDR, all the employment laws and keep on extrapolating.

I have NO idea how Tesla managed to get their factory going in germany so quickly - I'm serious - there is almost NO way france would issue permits as quickly as germany apparently did. So I def don't understand it all!

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#258

Post by sandGorgon »

kamaal wrote: post #228
sandGorgon wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indian labor laws across the whole country operate like this. Non-competes are useless..

Its a little different in India. Legal knowledge is negligible among most employees. Even thought the law says a thing, intimidation and threats always do the trick. No one really drags companies to courts given the long intervals of a case, costs, plus mind boggling amounts of corruption involved in anything. Secondly even things like notice period are not enforceable. I have seen situations where a manager would bl…

that is a very scary FUD perspective you have and it is not based in reality.

Non competes have been tested in indian courts and thrown out. This is fairly established and not a situation that is common practice.

the other things you talk about are not standard practice and things that may happen anywhere

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#259

Post by kamaal »

dx87 wrote: post #126
bitL wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aversion to risk. I was told by German entrepreneurs that they can get funding only when they give bank/VC/investor a collateral of the same value or if they are already profitable and don't need it anymore.

That's the reason Nassim Taleb gave in Black Swan as well. He said in Europe and Asia, failing is looked at negatively, while in the USA failing is fine, as long as it wasn't due to lack of effort. So the USA has a lot of failures, but also a lot of innovation, whereas European businesses are more stable, but also don't innovate as much.

Even a generation back, failures were a taboo in India. Risk aversion was to a point that would discourage people from even trying. Suicides dues to social shaming are common till date. The only way to make a living in India for a long while was like going through an established social heuristic. Any deviation used to be frowned upon.

These days things are diluted to an extent. May be due to overall effects of globalization and people just moving on due to cultural dead ends.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#260

Post by eecc »

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Is that the only fundamental reason for SV?

I thought it was an historical process with billions of government subsidies spent in military tech and research that drove the belt.

I admit my ignorance about the place so you might have a point, but it feels a tad too ideological to take it at face value. ;)

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