Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#181

Post by kortilla » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

manojlds wrote: post #173

nradov wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a casual motorsports fan. F1 and Nascar have become boring with cookie-cutter cars. Would love to see a new racing series that allowed real innovation again. Just impose a team budget cap and some basic rules for track safety (no active aerodynamics, fuel load limits, etc). Otherwise do whatever you like whether it's a 16 cylinder engine or all-wheel drive or a giant wing or something totally nuts.

Mercedes this year has a steering wheel that moves vertically to change the angle of the front wheels. RedBull, Ferrari and Mercedes have different philosophies in their aero, car length, front wing etc. The cars are far from cookie cutter, and 2022 regs already show different ways people could design the car. That's before we see how the teams do it. It's exciting times ahead for F1 in the shirt term. The 2026 engin…

Oh wow, changing the angle of the front wheels. It’s gripping innovation like that which really catches the imagination and speaks to the disruptive innovation at play here. Perhaps next year we’ll see a slightly lighter shade of black in the paint if they go really wild.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#182

Post by gcatalfamo » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

manojlds wrote: post #177

nradov wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ferrari is currently #6 out of 10 teams so whatever they're spending it's not working. https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2020/team.html

For those who are not following - Ferrari "cheated" last year with their engine and have a secret "agreement" with FIA to cut out thr cheat which also meant apparently rebuilding a lot of the PU. They should be back on pace in 2022.

But then Mercedes cheated THIS year and nothing happened. Ferrari simply lost the politics game.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#183

Post by stainforth » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

manojlds wrote: post #175

ip26 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all in the name of reducing expenses of course, but it has the opposite effect. I always thought it was more like, Ferrari will always spend gobs of money and a small player can only spend a tenth as much- the amount of money spent will not change- but how can we narrow the gap between the high budget & low budget teams, such that a really awesome low budget team has a chance of catching a high budget team na…

Budget cap kicks in next year heading into new regs for 2022. Ferrari and Merc spend $500m approx. Budget cap is $175m with exceptions like driver salary, top leaders salary, PU.

Wow. What are the outlays of other sports teams for a season? NFL, in what, mostly player salaries?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#184

Post by tonyedgecombe » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:37 AM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #16

F1 isn't what it used to be last century. Races were nail biting epic contests, cars visibly improved every season, drivers were international celebrities dicing with real life ending risk, and passionate fans filled the stadiums. Modern races are just a procession of the same few people each weekend in global rich social events.

I don't know, I stopped watching it when Barrichello and Schumacher deliberately swapped places on the penultimate lap of a race. It was always clear there were team orders but that incident was so egregious that I just stopped watching. Also it was getting a bit soporific.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#185

Post by rypskar » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:49 AM UTC

alexb7c4 wrote: post #120

GhostVII wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there problem is that it's just boring to watch because they are so fast - it is extremely hard to pass without hacks like DRS, which makes F1 races really boring to watch. And I'm sure most fans would much rather switch back to the v10 engines even though they are more "obsolete", a conventional powertrain doesn't make them any more boring to watch (it actually makes them more exciting imo). And if battery t…

Any suggestions of racing series more interesting than F1? I tried to watch Blancpain, Super GT, IMSA, Le Mans - all of them seem to have almost non-existent level of overtaking (even worse than in F1 imho)

Try watching rallycross [0], it has lots of action. Depending on your location you can see parts of or all of the races live on YouTube. They have also started with an electric series, project E, that looks promising.

[0]https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#186

Post by mrslave » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #28

x87678r wrote: post #16

F1 isn't what it used to be last century. Races were nail biting epic contests, cars visibly improved every season, drivers were international celebrities dicing with real life ending risk, and passionate fans filled the stadiums. Modern races are just a procession of the same few people each weekend in global rich social events.

Drivers still are international celebrities and they still dice with death. Someone died in an F2 car just last year. But you’re right that it has gotten far safer. Drivers walk away from horrific crashes at insane speeds. And modern cars despite being less powerful post lap times that boggle the mind. The aero is bonkers. Drivers regularly pull 5G laterally in corners. If it weren’t for rules, I bet we’d see corneri…

Good post but I don't understand the comparison. F1 is faster, we get it. The racing in MotoGP is so much better.

I caught the start of F1 Mugello this year and I turned off after 7 laps of safety car. (Was the first real lap 11?) It's embarrassing. The amazing additional crash under safety car wasn't the kind of entertainment I was seeking.

And what are the rules for track limits in F1? I understand that braking when running wide - if not an outright incident - is safer with a "normal" grippy surface, but now it appears that both sides of the ripple strip are in bounds!? I think many people agree, independent of alternate formulas/vehicles, that the last 10+ years of F1 is questionable progress and the races are too often outright boring.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#187

Post by remus » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 5:54 AM UTC

gcatalfamo wrote: post #182

manojlds wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who are not following - Ferrari "cheated" last year with their engine and have a secret "agreement" with FIA to cut out thr cheat which also meant apparently rebuilding a lot of the PU. They should be back on pace in 2022.

But then Mercedes cheated THIS year and nothing happened. Ferrari simply lost the politics game.

How so? Do you mean there toe in steering setup? If so I don't think that's really cheating as it's a loophole in the rules rather than a contravention of the rules.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#188

Post by DC-3 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:00 AM UTC

W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team.

When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they were not the sport would be dead within five years.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#189

Post by DC-3 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

eVoLInTHRo wrote: post #138

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

In your mind, how many years is a few years? I watch Formula E, but it's hard to imagine it becoming the pinnacle of motorsport anytime soon. Formula E's definitely made progress: e.g. they no longer have to run two separate cars just to finish the race, and they are decently quick. But they're still pretty far away in other aspects: 45 minute race, on temporary circuits purposefully designed with many tight turns to…

Formula E has also made the conscious decision not to pursue open chassis and aero regulations - good for keeping the costs down, but it makes it harder to take it seriously as a potential future 'pinnacle' series.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#190

Post by hvidgaard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:04 AM UTC

NoOneNew wrote: post #128

W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical…

From a safety point of view, the tuned mass damper was a nightmare. A small heavy object that must move freely in the car is hard to secure if a crash happens, and they do happen at very high speeds every single year. It's the same story with the skirts - they make the cars produce very efficient downforce, except when they don't work for whatever reason and the car continues in the state of motion is was in, almost always into a barrier.