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Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

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Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#171
post #89
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time how can smaller companies compete with large companies if they can’t match salaries?

When you can't compete on salary, you can compete on other axes. Not just financially (equity/etc), but also: - flexible schedules - autonomy + impact - interesting work - culture (respect, appreciation... etc) It's not hard for me to imagine an environment where I'd love to work despite giving up a lot of salary. Hell, I'm not unique—just look at how many incredibly skilled people choose research careers over far mo…

I still wonder why startups don’t offer more flexible work. If anything, my time in a startup was significantly less flexible than at a bigco, where I had a much bigger team to cover my shifts.

It could be something as simple as a 4 day workweek. Or even 4x 10 hour days. Instead startups are a place where people are expected to put in 60 hour weeks!

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#172
post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

> "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a competitor?

He needs to flip that around... why would any employee agree to be hired when they can't leave, and can't work on things in their own time?

He doesn't understand that in this industry, it is the workers who are in short supply, not the capital. The best companies go to california and play by these rules because the best workers want to work by those rules.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#173
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time how can smaller companies compete with large companies if they can’t match salaries?

Huge equity stakes. Huge. Not "align incentives" level stakes. "Google's chef has $26 million" stakes.

How do you express that as a percentage in equity? Also, it really seems pointless, because as they take on more funding guess whose “huge stake” gets diluted.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#174
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should rid of the term 'poaching'. There's no such thing. We're not animals, we are free to accept a better offer it comes along. The CEO should have counter offered with something more substantial, but he couldn't so the engineers went to greener pastures.

At the same time how can smaller companies compete with large companies if they can’t match salaries?

If they can't compete, what are you suggesting be done? Some workers just have to sacrifice themselves and work for less, out of fairness?

Feel free to do that if you think it is the right thing to do.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#175
post #50
post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Labor mobility is really low in Europe. In france you can be tied up in litigation (tribunel through appeals) for 10 years easily on an employment termination (my info is from 2016 time frame so may be dated). There is no such thing as at-will employment. Also, noncompete's are weird. If someone is receiving full pay on gardening leave they can work for someone else. If you instead have them work till end of notice p…

IANAL, but French, working in the hedge fund industry since a while, and had numerous non-compete clauses over time. Also have had some experience negotiating then from employee and employer perspective.

The French landscape is a bit more subtle that what you mention here.

The first thing to understand is that everything in your contract is not always 100% legally applicable, and companies play with this idea. The local laws often dictate the overall rationale that a non compete can address, and companies play with that interpretation in the contracts (more on this with examples later) . In practice though, if there was an occasion to defend it in a tribunal, the company's interpretation would definitely be discarded. 90% of the non compete clauses that I had to negociate, either to get out of it myself, or as an employer to hire a talent, revolve around this idea: the clause is legal, but its not possible to enforce really, because the interpretation would be trashed in a tribunal. This is especially true in France where tribunals (prud'hommes) are free, and very favorable to employees. This is also true for other countries though, I had cases in Hong Kong where the landscape is quite similar.

Now, it is true that France allows for unusually long non compete clauses compared to other countries. More than 12 month would likely be trashed by a tribunal though.

As for the compensation of the clause, I feel like France is actually quite good. If there is a non-compete, then it is mandatory that there is a compensation, and in practice you can expect the tribunal to require at least 40% of the salary.

Note that the employee definitely has a great negociation capability here, because the company has to choose whether to apply the non compete up to 2 weeks after the departure of the employee.

That means, if you plan on doing something unrelated to your previous job, you can bluff a bit for the clause to be applied, and enjoy a nice bonus of 40% of your old salary on top of your new job.

If you plan to work for a competitor, here are some examples of what to look for in your non compete clause:

The French non compete has to be limited in space, time, and focus.

Limited in space means than it cannot be worldwide, there has to be a list of regions where you are prevented to work, and this list cannot be too long. I had an example with a clause that listed 10 major financial places (US, UK, Germany, etc) and actually the end result was that more than 5 countries and the clause starts to be pretty much unenforceable.

For the time constraint, the general assumption is that 12M is the upper possible limit (18M for non poaching).

And for the focus, that basically mean that in case of litigation, the company would have to prove that: 1. You have market edge knowledge from the company that would result in an immediate and material advantage to the competitors (this one is very hard to prove for the company, and a lot of negociations revolve around debunking this argument) 2. You are going to work on the exact same subject in your new company, it cannot be just based on your field, it has to be very specific to your role in both companies.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#176
The drama with UK-based Imagination Technologies was better. Apple used Imagination's PowerVR GPUs in iPhones for years, then in 2017 Apple announced they would ditch them and make their own GPUs.

Apple was in talks to buy the company, but as in this case, decided to grab the engineers instead (this involved Apple opening an office nearby in St Albans, England to attract them).

Then followed 3 years of legal fighting over breach of contract, patents, you name it. Finally this year, the companies declared peace, signed new agreement where Apple would continue to pay Imagination big bucks every year in royalties. Looks like Imagination had a good case as well as some other new graphics technology Apple needed.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/2/21046476/apple-imagination...

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#177
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that hard to find out who the engineers are? Or is it somehow illegal to target other business's engineers for employment?

It was not hard to find out who the engineers were. It is not illegal to target other business's engineers. Hence Apple's actions. As an interesting aside, it is illegal to agree not to employ each others' engineers, AFAIK (IANAL).

> As an interesting aside, it is illegal to agree not to employ each others' engineers, AFAIK (IANAL).

Yeah... Apple got in trouble for that, actually.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#178
post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

maybe it's not about what the workers want, it's that it ends up allowing so many new companies to start up that wouldn't have otherwise

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#179

> Hooked would “sell” three engineers to Apple (including a longtime employee who served as Chief Technical Officer) and continue operating the less technical aspect of its business, relating to advertising. At the end, Apple hired them directly. The employees were literally put up to sale. Apple didn’t just wake up one morning and hire the hottest new techies, they were up for grabs, and this was clearly an at-will…

In California, non-competes are illegal.... the only way a non-compete is legal in California is if the company keeps paying the employee (e.g. as part of a severance, the company can agree to pay $10000 a month for you to not compete)

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#180
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking from a management perspective... Why would labor protections be needed if the rational move would be to work with the employee to improve their performance?

Because people are often irrational. Dilbert's pointy-haired boss resonates with a lot of office workers for a reason. We've all had, or at least heard about, that boss who was utterly incompetent, who masked that incompetence in self-important blustering, and who were physically unable to listen to the rank-and-file. Regulation is and should be there to deal with the abusers, and not with the companies that do, in f…

If only we could fire the pointy haired boss.
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