Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#111

Post by toyg » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

smcl wrote: post #22

JshWright wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is crazy, given the fact that Max Verstappen's Honda-powered Red Bull is the only car on the gird that can put up any challenge whatsoever against Mercedes and a Honda-powered Alpha Tauri _won_ at Monza (a circuit where engine performance is critical).

Even more crazy is that when they had very their own team they disbanded it ... only for Ross Brawn to lead an MBO, create a "new" team and win both the Constructors Championship and the Drivers Championship THE VERY NEXT SEASON season before it was bought by Mercedes, who went on to do rather well. Honda were on the cusp of dominating F1 and decided "nahhh". I wonder if it's actually not that good for business - oth…

> I wonder if it's actually not that good for business

It's actually pretty bad for business. Like European football, it's basically a money pit that generates good indirect returns only to the very top teams. That's why it struggles to keep 10 teams on the grid every year (of whom 3 are effectively "B-teams", one is half-owned by another's boss, one is driven by pilots managed by that same boss...).

That's why manufacturers as massive as Honda and Toyota never stick around F1 for long: they come in, realize how much money and time they will really need to waste to get any hope of winning trophies, and just pull the plug.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#112

Post by dmix » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:17 AM UTC

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Considering this is both a sport and one of the most heavily rule driven sports currently in existence, I’m really not sure the value you’re putting into the loopback consumer product cycle is really that high.

There’s far more to the sport than a grand R&D experiment (the value of just being “in it” within the grapevine of other top end machines, the marketing, the fun and prestige. Prestige is massive in F1). Especially considering how slow and incremental the new tech addition rules are added to the vehicles and how much the rules neuter the cars on purpose.

This is probably just down to the team/human capital not being super interested in investing the time and energy to play in the top league.

Honda still has a very large presence in the Indy series which arguably offers plenty of the more consumer oriented R&D bits in the short term.

Additionally the non committal F1E stuff makes the consumer R&D argument less persuasive.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#113

Post by TylerE » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #85

mikey_p wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's likely considering that they are mostly laying down in the car with the feet only slightly below their head, so relatively flat overall. In braking, blood would be forced to their legs/feet, so you'd see gray/black out.

You're right. I literally laid down in the driving position our FSAE car has and I still got it backwards, oh dear.

You might have gotten it right. I believe the major cause of redout is blood rushing into the eyes/veins in the eyes bursting. The head is still more or less level, even if the body isn't. So it's still very much "eyeballs out" G.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#114

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #108

serf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 technology is a lot more than just power-trains, I wish people would understand that better. Fuel chemistry, aerodynamics, functional simulation, driver ergonomics, safety dynamics, tire chemistry, metallurgy, analytics, data recording, composites, suspension, real-time telemetry and communication, digital systems management.. the list goes on forever. If the device/technique/procedure wasn't invented by F1, it wa…

Anybody in tech, and especially information technology, should be able to find something fascinating in F1. Winning an F1 race requires a huge amount of data processing, both for the operation of the race car itself, as well as for the simulations of race strategy in realtime. The teams bring enormous amounts of equipment to each race. Obviously a lot of that equipment is wrenches, screwdrivers, and related machinery…

Any good books on F1 technology, data processing or otherwise?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#115

Post by hellotomyrars » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #61

JshWright wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, Formula E?

Formula E is entirely unlike how F1 was. The big one is that all drivers drive the same chassis and battery, and with strict regulations regarding the engine. Pilots may as well all drive the same car. They also added Mario Kart style boosts. This is a game, mostly intended to provide entertainment and show off the pilot skills. F1 was as much about constructors as it was about pilots, and in fact, being a pilot was…

You should try actually watching Formula E.

They have continued to open up the car each season, and there are real differences between them.

The "Mario Kart" style boosts serve a functional strategic purpose that is similar to the strategic elements involved in pitting in F1.

FE is the racing series driving things forward technologically now. This is why F1 can't attract new manufacturers to the series, and why FE has attracted several. There is a serious interest in EV tech now and the EV tech lives in Formula E.

Also the racing is just flat out better in FE. The last 5 years of F1 have been largely a parade. This year has been more interesting to be fair, but still, the racing just isn't as good.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#116

Post by fomine3 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

gonzo41 wrote: post #101

mhh__ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla killing F1 is a conclusion too far. The success of electric vehicles makes the calculus less good, but it's just another term in the equation for a company doing business in F1. Honda are still in other ICE motorsports. I think it's worth pointing out that Honda staying this long was a surprise in itself because, to be blunt, they were absolutely awful in their first years and no better than their rivals now. A…

Shouldn't F1 cars be about finding the peak of a X engineering problem. For electiric's it's not as much about speed but battery. Maybe having hyper-miler distance races that aren't speed oriented is the sort of pivot F1 should be doing? I know it's not sexy like a fast car moving nimbly among the pack but if car companies can get their tech focused on getting the most distance from a battery then there's the cross o…

Some fuel efficiency race exists even by honda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Eco-marathon

https://global.honda/about/sustainability/environment/face/c...

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#117

Post by dang » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

nomad543 wrote: post #87

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Tesla didn't kill anything, electric battery technology is old and simple, any car maker can quickly switch to battery. In fact, battery vehicles are orders of magnitude easier to build than ICE vehicles. You talk as if Tesla had invented something extraordinaire. Stop drinking the kool aid.

Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? It just degrades discussion and also discredits the true information that you may have to add.

Edit: you did it at least three times in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24683823 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24683862) are also not cool. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of this site more to heart? Your contributions and your knowledge are welcome, but everyone posting here needs also to take care of the shared environment (which is all too fragile).

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#118

Post by in3d » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

mikey_p wrote: post #88

in3d wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008. There have always been engine regulations. The drivers are fighting as hard as ever against each other when they get a chance. Pit stop tactics are not a secret sauce. You can predict the pit stop strategy pretty well before the race even starts. It has always been as much about cars as drivers. E.g. McLaren won 4 years in the row 1988-1991 and then Williams won 3 ye…

Wasn't it banned much earlier? Famously in 94 Senna was under pressure in the Williams which was suffering without the traction control it enjoyed the year before, and he also had raised suspicions after standing trackside that Benetton were using an illegal form of traction control that year.

That was a second ban in 2008. It was allowed starting in 2001.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#119

Post by dharmab » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:32 AM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #114

CWuestefeld wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody in tech, and especially information technology, should be able to find something fascinating in F1. Winning an F1 race requires a huge amount of data processing, both for the operation of the race car itself, as well as for the simulations of race strategy in realtime. The teams bring enormous amounts of equipment to each race. Obviously a lot of that equipment is wrenches, screwdrivers, and related machinery…

Any good books on F1 technology, data processing or otherwise?

A lot of it is proprietary and kept secret from other teams. Diagnostic monitors and even the back of the steering wheel are censored in official media. Chain Bear F1 is a YouTube channel that produces good summaries from public information.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#120

Post by alexb7c4 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #110

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

I think there problem is that it's just boring to watch because they are so fast - it is extremely hard to pass without hacks like DRS, which makes F1 races really boring to watch. And I'm sure most fans would much rather switch back to the v10 engines even though they are more "obsolete", a conventional powertrain doesn't make them any more boring to watch (it actually makes them more exciting imo). And if battery t…

Any suggestions of racing series more interesting than F1? I tried to watch Blancpain, Super GT, IMSA, Le Mans - all of them seem to have almost non-existent level of overtaking (even worse than in F1 imho)