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Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

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Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#171

Post by conradfr »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #130
ratww wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. If anything, Reddit is getting bigger. In my circle nobody knew what it was five years ago. Now it has effectively become mainstream, and is being (positively) quoted on TV, etc. This is actually the second time it happens. Ten years ago people also claimed that "Reddit is dying". It wasn't, it was just changing its core audience of technical users to a broader one. And now it is doing it again.

Mainstream name recognition isn’t particularly indicative of success. In my experience, Reddit is slowly eliminating anything that doesn’t conform to a west coast American view of the world. Unfortunately for them, the rest of the world is coming online and has a different view of things. We’re starting to see this with India and the EU. Best case scenario for Reddit is a link aggregator for a very narrow group, unle…

I don't think you can run a (successful and mainstream) free speech reddit clone in the EU, it would be a PR and political nightmare.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#172

Post by voldacar »

Avamander wrote: post #112
voldacar wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thedonald existed on reddit for quite some time and during that period, free speech survived relatively intact. Since the banning of thedonald along with hundreds of other subs, free speech has suffered, not improved, inconsistent with your hypothesis. Also, "the paradox of tolerance" can be trotted out to justify just about any banning or censoring of someone you don't like

There was no free speech with r/thedonald, they banned anyone that didn't agree with them. Blatantly.

I was referring to the health of free speech across the site in general, I wasn't making a defense of thedonald. And 90% of political subs on reddit blatantly ban people from $opposite_side, that's just how reddit is

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#173

Post by sebmellen »

cies wrote: post #138
sebmellen wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line where free speech ends is pretty clearly delineated, and that's when it crosses over into criminal or violent action in the "world of atoms". Almost all of your examples can be prosecuted based on their direct effect on the real world (or representation of a crime, such as with child abuse videos), not the content of their speech . The difference is crucial. To take things to an extreme, if I say "all XXXX s…

So you want law to protect people that say "all X should be killed", then X is not demonstrably super violent/intolerant in the first place? Let's say someone campaigns that all people that have gay sex should be killed: do you want this "speech" protected? Well: I dont. That's why I think "intolerance of the intolerant" is good. Most law books in developed democracies agree with me. White supremacists, racists, fasc…

Yes, I do, actually.

We have a number of tiny fringe groups like this in the US, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, which would surely be illegal in most of Europe. I will defend their full right to speech so I can have my full right to speech.

In Europe, free speech laws shut down leftist activists, not just "white supremacists, racists, fascists, extreme wahabists/salafits". I think this is a strawman and an idealistic vision of being able to control speech fairly. One of the biggest active groups is the IHRA, a Zionist organization. The IHRA consists of 31 member nations including the United States, Canada, Australia, France, England, Germany, and twenty-six other European countries.

They are essentially criminalizing Palestinian activism. See https://socialism.com/statement/defend-free-speech-stop-the-....

This has become a big problem in Germany for Palestinian/Muslim activists who are critical of Israel. Curtailing free speech is a slippery slope.

Now, perhaps the AfD will be banned in Germany, as it has been placed under so-called "Verfassungsschütz beobachtung", an agency that protects the German constitution. Should it be criminal to identify as a communist or nationalist in Germany? What comes after that — perhaps it should be criminal to be a Jew or Muslim or Christian, given the hateful teachings of the Torah, Quran, and Bible?

This is a bad line of argument.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#174

Post by cies »

pleasebegood wrote: post #155
cies wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. I say movies of such acts. That's not the act itself. See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. > These are all different things with their own problems. > You're mixing up a lot of things. No, they are all current limitations to free speech encoded in law. I mean to say (please re-read my comment) that "true…

> See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta... A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. Maybe she shouldn't be allowed to express herself and hide it. We can all then live a happy fantasy where everyone is a good person in any depicti…

Interesting. So having a official terrorist recruitment offices in your town should be legal? (basically this is what the KKK is to me)

I dont think so.

> A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself.

I dont know if the piece was inciting violence against children. I think it does not, and if it would it'd be censored. Rightfully, imho.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#175

Post by ceilingcorner »

conradfr wrote: post #171
ceilingcorner wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainstream name recognition isn’t particularly indicative of success. In my experience, Reddit is slowly eliminating anything that doesn’t conform to a west coast American view of the world. Unfortunately for them, the rest of the world is coming online and has a different view of things. We’re starting to see this with India and the EU. Best case scenario for Reddit is a link aggregator for a very narrow group, unle…

I don't think you can run a (successful and mainstream) free speech reddit clone in the EU, it would be a PR and political nightmare.

Doesn’t need to be a free speech clone, it merely needs to match the EU’s belief system in ways that Reddit doesn’t.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#176

Post by akvadrako »

mdonahoe wrote: post #44
sebmellen wrote: post #4

Reddit is very clearly not in favour of free speech: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/reddit-bans-thedonald-and-... . Aaron Swartz was very clearly in favour of free speech: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/becausewecan . I think the reasons for this are self-evident.

HN isn’t exactly a bastion of free speech either

Very little actually gets removed from HN.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#177

Post by bonzini »

cies wrote: post #165
bonzini wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally what they did and it was already considered censorship by some.

Considered good censorship by me. If you preach hate to minorities in my house you are also going to be asked to leave.

Oh I agree, and it's what the paradox of tolerance is about.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#178

Post by ceilingcorner »

cies wrote: post #164
ceilingcorner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Paradox of Tolerance refers to the intolerant using violence to physically make it impossible for the tolerant to exist. Unclear to me how banning a subreddit is remotely related.

> the intolerant using violence to physically make it impossible for the tolerant to exist. Are the KKK and some extreme white supremacist org not exactly that? They want a sub group of society to be removed, and have shown to not shun violence. Being intolerant to these hate groups is VERY NORMAL to me, and sometime we need law help platform them. It get really sad when a president seems to kinda like these groups.

If any extremists act on their ideas using violence, then of course they would count. Otherwise, tolerance of negative ideas is a part of the ‘free society’ package. Merely having unpopular or wrong opinions is not equivalent to preventing the tolerant from existing.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#179

Post by pleasebegood »

cies wrote: post #174
pleasebegood wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See Japan where comics that show sexual abuse of "young looking individuals" are freely distributed. https://myanimelist.net/manga/127513/Dansei_Kyoufushou_Datta... A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. Maybe she shouldn't be allowed to express herself and hide it. We can all then live a happy fantasy where everyone is a good person in any depicti…

Interesting. So having a official terrorist recruitment offices in your town should be legal? (basically this is what the KKK is to me) I dont think so. > A manga that depicts serious child abuse that turned the author into a porn star. It's written by herself. I dont know if the piece was inciting violence against children. I think it does not, and if it would it'd be censored. Rightfully, imho.

Incitement of violence and abuse is already illegal. I am not sure what your point is then. Your first comment paints a broad stroke. Please be more concise when talking about censoring heavy handed topics because otherwise you may be causing a chilling effect.

And your example is not speech.

Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder

#180

Post by ratww »

tinus_hn wrote: post #110
Krasnol wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But their success proves that they don't have to care... I mean seriously this "Diggs past will come for you"-line is being repeated for years but it's not happening. Meanwhile "alternatives" come up and and become irrelevant or nests of hate.

That’s true, just until when it’s no longer true. Just like Digg, MySpace and many networks before them.

The problem is that such an open-ended prediction has absolutely no value whatsoever...

I'm sure Reddit will die someday, but people have been saying this for at least 10 years or more. When non-technical users started using it, when violentacrez et al were banned, with every layout change big or small, staff changes...

People said the same thing about Facebook when it opened to non-edu users or when it launched the timeline. Or when Apple is antagonistic towards developers.

Reddit, Facebook, Apple and other companies are able to do well by antagonizing niche users because niche users can be replaced by regular folk. And sometimes it's almost necessary to antagonize those early users, since they can be a barrier to growth.

Reddit wants to dissociate themselves from 4chan, t_d, Boston Bomber and all this stuff. And they're doing it via cat pictures and the sort.

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