Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thedonald existed on reddit for quite some time and during that period, free speech survived relatively intact. Since the banning of thedonald along with hundreds of other subs, free speech has suffered, not improved, inconsistent with your hypothesis. Also, "the paradox of tolerance" can be trotted out to justify just about any banning or censoring of someone you don't like
Nope, it specifically covers "preaching of intolerance", that's not "just someone's speech you dont like". Lets say I speak about gardening without pesticides, and someone with a pesticide factory does not like that speech. How do you think the "the paradox of tolerance" can be used to shut me up in this case? You can't. Case closed.
Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
161–170 of 313 posts
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#162Reddit is very clearly not in favour of free speech: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/reddit-bans-thedonald-and-... . Aaron Swartz was very clearly in favour of free speech: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/becausewecan . I think the reasons for this are self-evident.
If you run a forum and a user is constantly making up lies, harassing other users, and spamming misinformation then I don't think banning them is "free speech" issue. t_D should have been banned long before it eventually was imo. It actively spread misinformation and hate and made the website worse for other users. And a question for you: You say that Reddit is not in favor of free speech because it banned subs like…
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
How so ? I can't recall any major free speech issues on HN. Being downvoted and having your comment hidden is not exactly something HN can do much about, seeing that it is up to the users.
HN is heavily moderated and posts that cross lines are quickly removed. It is not even secret and HN does not pretend it is not so. The reddit rules are much more loose. The subs that were banned on reddit would not even had achange to start here.
I know some political posts (and definitely trash/advertising) get cut and not everything (as defined by "free speech") gets through, but on a personal level for me (and I'm sure many others) I think the moderation works.
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
honestly, i would say the banning of thedonald is clearly a response to The Paradox of Tolerance rather than not supporting free-speech. you cannot be tolerant of the intolerant if you want free speech to survive.
The Paradox of Tolerance refers to the intolerant using violence to physically make it impossible for the tolerant to exist. Unclear to me how banning a subreddit is remotely related.
Are the KKK and some extreme white supremacist org not exactly that? They want a sub group of society to be removed, and have shown to not shun violence.
Being intolerant to these hate groups is VERY NORMAL to me, and sometime we need law help platform them. It get really sad when a president seems to kinda like these groups.
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
because reddit programmers are so bad they couldn't just add an _if_ statement, or a limit?
That's literally what they did and it was already considered censorship by some.
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#166Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
The line where free speech ends is pretty clearly delineated, and that's when it crosses over into criminal or violent action in the "world of atoms". Almost all of your examples can be prosecuted based on their direct effect on the real world (or representation of a crime, such as with child abuse videos), not the content of their speech . The difference is crucial. To take things to an extreme, if I say "all XXXX s…
So you want law to protect people that say "all X should be killed", then X is not demonstrably super violent/intolerant in the first place? Let's say someone campaigns that all people that have gay sex should be killed: do you want this "speech" protected? Well: I dont. That's why I think "intolerance of the intolerant" is good. Most law books in developed democracies agree with me. White supremacists, racists, fasc…
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#168Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Child abuse is a physical act and isn't speech. A video is a form of expression that falls under speech for all intents and purposes. There is no general caveat to freedom of speech which states that one cannot create a video of some illegal act. Child pornography seems to be the only exception in the US. Further, metaphysically, 'physical acts' such as burning flags fall under freedom of expression, and all physica…
Your point about child abuse is ridiculous. We prohibit child abuse precisely because it is a physical act. If I said "I will whip my child 50 times", and didn't do it, that would not be child abuse. It becomes child abuse once it is a physical act. You make the faulty presumption that speech itself can be a form of abuse. This is where free speech absolutists such as myself would disagree. Speech is a protected clas…
Agreed, so being a physical act seems to be necessary for its prohibition. But we're not talking about child abuse, we're talking about the creation and distribution of child abuse videos, i.e. child pornography. These are two separate crimes.
>Speech is a protected class of expression precisely for this reason: it cannot be abusive.
People can absolutely be abused by speech, even in the common meaning of the word. Spousal and child abuse often happens through speech. Teachers may abuse their students through speech. Cyberbullying is widely regarded as a form of abuse through speech. Threats are themselves speech. If speech is so important as to have no real-world consequences, what makes freedom of speech such an important principle?
> if we define speech as "the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words"
Freedom of speech (or more accurately, expression) law is much wider than this, and applies to, say, artistic works in which not a single word is spoken, and it also applies to burning flags or silently protesting. There is no need for a word to be spoken, or even a concrete thought - speech can be purely emotive, or a command, or a shopping list, too. Child pornography can easily be considered artistic. The fact that it is art, and therefore expression, is irrelevant to illegalizing it.
>I cannot choose to stab people as a form of free expression, nor torch a building.
The same law that protects freedom of expression also protects freedom of speech. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are two sides of the same coin. You're noticing that not all physical acts count as speech, and this is certainly true for child abuse, stabbing people, or torching buildings. However, in general, it is not true for videos depicting those things, with the exception of child porn.
Re: Reddit’s About page doesn't include Aaron Swartz as a founder
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
The line where free speech ends is pretty clearly delineated, and that's when it crosses over into criminal or violent action in the "world of atoms". Almost all of your examples can be prosecuted based on their direct effect on the real world (or representation of a crime, such as with child abuse videos), not the content of their speech . The difference is crucial. To take things to an extreme, if I say "all XXXX s…
It's not just a saying, the pen is truly mightier than the sword. Hitler never physically dragged a jew into a gas chamber. After 1933 he never shot someone or so much as brawled with anyone. Yet it was only words, his words, his speech, or ink on a paper, that compelled millions of people to commit some of the greatest atrocities in modern history. Words can obviously be a more powerful thing than actions. In anothe…