How To Be An Anti-Casteist • Hacker News Board

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#281

Post by Bang2Bay » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #227

throwawaysea wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they haven’t been violently discriminated against for millennia. This is a common colonialist trope spread about India. Your language alone, using Western words like “caste” to describe a system that doesn’t fit that word, is influencing your perception. Caste based discrimination (and all the negative issues that come with it) is very recent, and was nudged into existence by British imperialism, which relied on d…

A social system akin to brahminism and caste can only be created and held together by violence. That you can’t see this is because you are benefitting from it, either in the Indian version, or perhaps in the flavors of the same thing developed in the western world.

Today a similar discrimination, of some people, based on birth, in government jobs in india, is held together without violence, unfortunately.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#282

Post by hairband » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

dgaaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #184

hairband wrote: post #159

Quoting from the article: > Years ago, these invitations to go swimming with American friends and neighbors were a sign of acceptance. But now the same invitations for his fellow Indians felt like a trap to out him as a Dalit. Not trying to defend casteism or anything, and Maybe I understood it wrong, but this makes it seem like if Indian guys are inviting him for swim then it must be ascertain his caste, but if Amer…

"felt like" Of course, you'll never know for sure if they meant to find out your caste. That's the point. If they wanted to be explicit about their objective, they could've asked for their caste.

Thats what I am trying to say. You can never be sure, and it is only when you attach the context of them being Indian and his experience in India as a "lower caste" person that you arrive at this conclusion that the invitation must be extended to figure out his caste.

And that makes it a very bad anecdote for an article like that, and in general weakens the point the article is trying to make.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#283

Post by hairband » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

paloaltokid wrote: post #167

hairband wrote: post #159

Quoting from the article: > Years ago, these invitations to go swimming with American friends and neighbors were a sign of acceptance. But now the same invitations for his fellow Indians felt like a trap to out him as a Dalit. Not trying to defend casteism or anything, and Maybe I understood it wrong, but this makes it seem like if Indian guys are inviting him for swim then it must be ascertain his caste, but if Amer…

I think you misunderstood. The point is that it's not in his head - he knows his Indian colleagues are trying to figure out his caste. Non-Indians don't have a caste so he knows it's safe in that situation.

Thats what I am having trouble understanding. how does he know? Unless you take into account the context of them being Indian and his experience in India, they won't be able to tell whether its to figure out his caste, or just to have fun.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#284

Post by henru » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 12:20 AM UTC

_b4ut wrote: post #225

tclancy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing how?

B/c it is being ignored while in plain sight.

Discrimination based on caste is different than discrimination based on race, though. There is probably race based discrimination in India too, and it might intersect with caste, but conflating both probably doesnt really make sense.

Also, I dont think people really ignore people of color being racist within their countries. Most of the time when people bring up arguments stating that the people being racist are white people, its in the context of western countries with a colonial/slave trade past where systematic racism doesnt target white people.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#285

Post by henru » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 12:25 AM UTC

raincom wrote: post #217

Jati-s (castes) exist. Does 'the caste system' exist? No one has proved it. What people do to prove the existence of such a system: injustices, one verse from Purusha sukta, some verses from Manu, another verse from Gita.

How do caste based injustices do not prove the existence of a caste system?

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#286

Post by furyroad » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 12:50 AM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #275

furyroad wrote: post #220

I have been following the discussions on caste here at HN and other forums. I noticed that whenever this topic comes up, there are some arguments brought up to either deny the existence of the caste system in modern India or to blame it entirely on the European rulers or portray it as a noble social system that was hijacked for political purposes. Let me address these points. 1. Caste system was a thing of the past I…

You are conflating caste with varna and jati. Caste is a British invention though not nefarious just a product of their times. My grandparents were farm labor, their children were merchants, and their grandchildren are professors and scientist. What caste are we? If you misunderstand the problem - conflate caste with varna and jati - you will never understand or solve it.

Lets keep aside trivial semantic nuances and get to the core point. When I say caste system, I mean the practice of segregation and discrimination of people based on birth, ancestry or profession. Are you denying the existence of such a system in India before the Europeans arrived?

There are countless references both in Hindu scriptures and social practices to prove that a rigid caste system was the basis of Indian society for millennia.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#287

Post by kingkawn » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 1:04 AM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #246

kingkawn wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A social system akin to brahminism and caste can only be created and held together by violence. That you can’t see this is because you are benefitting from it, either in the Indian version, or perhaps in the flavors of the same thing developed in the western world.

Everything in this comment is without evidence. A claim of the form “if you disagree with X you must be Y” is a Kafka trap, a common logical fallacy.

Yes, I can you and your compatriots here getting quite frazzled that someone might actually call into question the social order that you sit atop

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#288

Post by haltingproblem » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 1:59 AM UTC

furyroad wrote: post #286

haltingproblem wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating caste with varna and jati. Caste is a British invention though not nefarious just a product of their times. My grandparents were farm labor, their children were merchants, and their grandchildren are professors and scientist. What caste are we? If you misunderstand the problem - conflate caste with varna and jati - you will never understand or solve it.

Lets keep aside trivial semantic nuances and get to the core point. When I say caste system, I mean the practice of segregation and discrimination of people based on birth, ancestry or profession. Are you denying the existence of such a system in India before the Europeans arrived? There are countless references both in Hindu scriptures and social practices to prove that a rigid caste system was the basis of Indian s…

Again you are conflating jati and varna and no they are not trivial semantic nuances. These divisions persisted everywhere in far more rigid fashion - Western Europe, Japan, Russia, Korea......

Look for my earlier comment in this thread. When the British codified jati+varna into Caste they acknowledge that there was mobility at the bottom though not at the top. The Census of Indian in the 90s acknowledged the same thing. This is not and never has been as rigid as you think.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#289

Post by drieddust » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #260

drieddust wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely. The Question is what is being done to erase that difference? IMHO trying to find cultural fit is a form of ongoing discrimination[1] and it strengthens the effect of different starting points[2]. India is countering [2] by enforcing a 50% quota in education, Jobs, and politics. AFAIK West on the other hand is wishing it to vanish without doing anything concrete. India is taking right steps in the…

It's odd - often when I talk with international people, they seem to be under the impression that affirmative action doesn't exist outside of their own country. I was recently talking with someone in China who claimed that the Uighurs could not be oppressed because they are given advantages in hiring/education, and that America would never do the same for black people. Suffice to say, the US does engage in extensive…

Comparing treament of Uighers to caste situation in India is unfair.

Yes there is discrimination but India is fighting it on policy and social level. Reserving 50% in education and jobs is one such big step. India's constitution was written by a a Dalit. Many people from the held high offices. Current prime minister and president are from the same community.

> Suffice to say, the US does engage in extensive aff action in education and hiring (although neither are directly legally mandated).

Is it measured? If not than how you know?

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#290

Post by paloaltokid » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

hairband wrote: post #283

paloaltokid wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. The point is that it's not in his head - he knows his Indian colleagues are trying to figure out his caste. Non-Indians don't have a caste so he knows it's safe in that situation.

Thats what I am having trouble understanding. how does he know? Unless you take into account the context of them being Indian and his experience in India, they won't be able to tell whether its to figure out his caste, or just to have fun.

Have you ever been discriminated against? And on a consistent and ongoing basis? When people are after you all the time, you start to learn the warning signals.