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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#211

From Cynthia Tablot’s Precolonial India in Practice[0] > One peculiarity of Andhra society is that many of the leading warrior families made no pretensions to ksatriya status but instead proudly proclaimed their descent from the creator Bramha’s feet. This is an allusion to the famous origin myth first found in the Rig Veda wherein the four varnas are said to have originated from different portions of the body of Pur…

Edit: I would truly appreciate a discourse. Simple downvoting provides no feedback. India suffers from this colonial system and unfortunately media takes every single opportunity. Like recent rape cases. Only case with victim from lower class and culprits from higher class is getting all the media attention. I am not saying it's unnecessary but having a dialog requires honest intentions. Just like BLM these media hyp…

> Only case with victim from lower class and culprits from higher class is getting all the media attention

Or maybe it was because of the exceptional brutality of the crime itself, and the shocking behaviour of the police - cremating the body at 2:30AM without the family's approval.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#212

There has been a lot of outrage over the past week in India over the rape of a lower caste woman by upper castes. The police sided with the culprits and forced the family to cremate the victim to destroy evidence. This is a common tactic by upper castes to spread terror and keep the lower castes in line. Goes to show how entrenched the system is especially outside the big cities.

This could be any week in the last ten years at least. There's always outrage, there's always protests, and nothing changes.

I've lived long enough in North India to know that outside a couple of cities, being out after dark is a big no-no if you're a single woman.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#213
When we hear the word caste, we think of India, of poverty, inequality, and discrimination. But caste is a European non translatable, from Spanish-Portuguese "Casta". Racial purity or limpieza de sangre was at the root of this system.

When Europeans colonised the Americas 500 years ago, they established a casta system in Mexico. France had three castes - nobility, clergy, and peasants. This unjust system came to and end with the French revolution. The Dutch established a caste system in Sri Lanka. After colonising Philipines, Spain started a caste system there. The unehrliche Leute were the outcastes of Germany, the latrine cleaners, skinners and grave diggers.

England had four castes - king, nobles, knights and peasants. Gongfermours, the toilet cleaners were outcastes in London. The Romanis were outcastes for thousand years.

Caste is quintessentially European.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that term previous person used is Marathi (I am not a Marathi speaker though). > Are there terms in English I should look out for? Not really. But you have more of contexts and where the questioning is going whether it's in a professional or personal setting - the line of inquiry. If the person is taking a very shallow interest (or a misplaced interest) in knowing where your roots are, who your ancestors were…

In Hindi I think the term is "jaati" (with the question being the same).

Yes. Jaati, jaat. "Kul" as well. People often ask "kis kul se ho" - "what lineage you belong to" - it's supposedly a politer way to ask someone's caste.

And in the region, your last name (sorry, it's just a knowledge I picked up while growing up) is endemic to, it's called "jaayat" or "jaait".

> In Hindi I think

I assumed you are either not Indian or not from that region in the North.

Also, what I meant by saying there are not really terms one should look out for is in professional setups, at least these days, caste is not asked openly but indirectly.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#215
My 2 cents about my experience in growing up in rural central India, which hosts several major Scheduled Tribes (Adivasis) and Neo-Buddhists (erstwhile dalits).

* Modern caste system isn't the same as the one in 19th, 18th and 17th Century. Different groups climbed up and down the ladder, aided by the socio-political movements.

* The modern version of caste is more about social prestige, and status. In my experience whenever people were curious about my caste it was to know what tribe you belong. Just like people asked me regularly where I was "actually" from in EU and US.

* A lot of rural Indians aren't well versed with the metropolitan western concept of egalité, because the Dharmic system functions differently. This means the closest frame of reference is the caste system to know one's place in the pecking order. Same structures can be found in Japan and Korea.

* The Dalits are a formidable political force now and a lot of caste based discrimination is done by non-Brahmins who fear the reduction of their share of the pie. I've seen brahmins being on receiving end of the caste based discrimination, countless no. of times.

* Caste system in corporate world is cloak-and-daggers game and goes hand in hand with using language, region, culture etc to further their aims. A Marathi Kunbi might be favoured by a Marathi manager over a Bengali Kayastha.

* I studied in a Govt. college which has more than 50% seats reserved for SC/ST/OBC/NT and I have first hand experience that caste is not an indicator of talent.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#216

When we hear the word caste, we think of India, of poverty, inequality, and discrimination. But caste is a European non translatable, from Spanish-Portuguese "Casta". Racial purity or limpieza de sangre was at the root of this system. When Europeans colonised the Americas 500 years ago, they established a casta system in Mexico. France had three castes - nobility, clergy, and peasants. This unjust system came to and…

The caste system in what is now India is entirely of their own making.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#217
Jati-s (castes) exist. Does 'the caste system' exist? No one has proved it. What people do to prove the existence of such a system: injustices, one verse from Purusha sukta, some verses from Manu, another verse from Gita.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#218

When we hear the word caste, we think of India, of poverty, inequality, and discrimination. But caste is a European non translatable, from Spanish-Portuguese "Casta". Racial purity or limpieza de sangre was at the root of this system. When Europeans colonised the Americas 500 years ago, they established a casta system in Mexico. France had three castes - nobility, clergy, and peasants. This unjust system came to and…

Rest assured, nobody is thinking of the Spanish-Portuguese casta system when they talk about Indian caste. We might use the same word but I don't think anyone is familiar enough with the Spanish usage in the Americas for it to bring about a misunderstanding. But you make a very good point.

For non Spanish speakers or people not familiar with the Spanish casta system, it's synonymous with breed and lineage. Before the "Conquista", the lineage was focused on nobility Vs peasants. During the conquista, it shifted to a racial pecking order. The idea that the Spanish casta (castizo) was at the top of the pyramid, and any mixtures with other races put you at different levels in that pyramid. For instance a white castizo mixed with a black person would be mulato, but a white non-castizo like a Dutch or English white mixed with a black would give you a lower but similar caste. Your caste had implications in social and political life -- access to property, being able to hold certain jobs, etc. It quickly became unworkable because of the ever growing degrees of "mestizaje".

I don't know if India has a similar idea (what caste are you when a dalit mixes with a Brahmin?), but as you've mentioned, it's worth noting that the word we use for the Indian Varna does come a Spanish word (which in turn probably has Nordic roots) for a very different race/lineage based caste system.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#219

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

> I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy . I guess you're not Indian, so as I understand it that actually makes you casteless - untouchable, by strict adherence to the rules but here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACaste%2FArchive_1#Forei... there is the quote: "if memory serves, Westerners (particularly English) are held to be Brahmin, "

No. You are confusing race to caste, they don't intermix. There are brahmins in all shades of colours, and dalits in all shades of colours too.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#220
I have been following the discussions on caste here at HN and other forums. I noticed that whenever this topic comes up, there are some arguments brought up to either deny the existence of the caste system in modern India or to blame it entirely on the European rulers or portray it as a noble social system that was hijacked for political purposes. Let me address these points.

1. Caste system was a thing of the past

I was born in India in a Hindu family and lived there for most of my life, until recently. I left the country because, among other reasons, I did a inter-caste marriage and was afraid of the repercussions. I was raised in a big city but had close ties to my ancestral village where my grandparents and extended family live. I can attest that the caste system does exist in all spheres of life and it is more pronounced in rural areas but less visible in urban centers. The caste system decides who you can marry, where you can live and even where you will be buried when you are dead. I have faced casteism at school, work and personal life. I have seen, as clear as daylight, numerous other incidents of caste based discrimination and violence both subtle and overt.

Some recent incidents in the news throws light on how invasive these practices are.

Hyderabad, a tech hub on par with Bangalore, had an incident of Honor Killing last week, which is just one of many such incidents. [1]

Low caste people are still forced to live in secluded parts called Dalit Colonies and are not allowed to freely enter the main sections of the village, where the upper castes live. [2]

There still exist separate burial and cremation grounds for low caste people.[3][4][5]

These are just some of the manifestations of the system. There are many day to day practices that are considered normal behavior by the society.

India's popular matrimonial sites has separate sections for each caste.[6]

You can see many house lease offers in popular classifieds websites saying "Vegetarians only". This is a form of Dog whistling as most upper castes are vegetarian.[7]

2. Caste system was introduced by British rulers to divide Indians.

Most people cite to the census carried out by the British, but conveniently forget that the census just formally documented the existing caste demographics for administrative purposes; not invent it. The caste system has roots in vedic culture and existed for at-least two millennia before Europeans ruled India. The religious laws such as Manusmriti and Dharmasutra extensively documents the caste system. Any one who reads those scriptures can understand that the ancient civil laws were entirely based on caste. I see this argument as a way to deflect the blame on foreign rulers without accepting the flaws that were inherent to the Hindu religion.

1. https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/crime/260920/man-hack...

2. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/path-to-...

3. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/denied-access-cremator...

4. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-landrights-caste-tr...

5. https://sabrangindia.in/article/dalits-obcs-forced-bury-thei...

6. https://www.shaadi.com/matrimony/reddy-matrimony

7. https://www.nobroker.in/property/2-BHK-apartment-for-rent-in...

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