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Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

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Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#301

Post by DoreenMichele »

drumhead wrote: post #62

Adele, the singer, was photographed at the Nottinghill Carnival (a massive Carribean street festival over the August bank holiday in London) with her hair in Bantu Knots and wearing a bikini top in the colours of the Jamaican flag. As soon as it was on twitter the you started getting tweets from Black Americans about cultural appropriation, but this was met in turn by fierce opposition from African and Carribean post…

Cultural appropriation doesnt seem to be a problem anywhere else but the USA.

The US tends to monetize everything. This seems to be less true elsewhere.

We make a stink about "cultural appropriation" here because too much ends up being about the almighty dollar and those dollars far too often go into the pockets of White males, regardless of whose culture, creativity, labor, etc. created the thing.

I wish the idea would go die. I think it helps keep the problem alive rather than resolving it. But I think that's basically the crux of the issue.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#302

Post by waheoo »

fastball wrote: post #131
waheoo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all whi…

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. Isn't that the same argument people use in the US to justify why more Black Americans are incarcerated / killed by cops? If that is actually your stance, I'm confused as to how you see Australia as fundamentally different from the US.

Because we had a royal commission into this and that is what we found.

https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w?t=253

Seriously this trying to draw false comparisons with America where there aren't any is exactly what the OPs article is about.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#303

Post by doctor_eval »

188201 wrote: post #252
justinclift wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Er... that sounds incredibly racist?

I find it really illogical to say some statement is racist because it lay out tendency of certain race having certain weakness. Racist is a race discrimination. Race discrimination is when you are treated differently because of your race. https://equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/race-... Skin color is not the reason of a certain person to have certain ability, or certain moral standard. "Aboriginal peop…

> "Aboriginal people just commit more crime" is a factual statement about how many aboriginal people committing crime

The statement "people who have been abused continuously for 200 years commit more crime" might be true, and is not racist. [0]

The statement "Aboriginal people just commit more crime" is true only because Aboriginal people have been abused continuously for 200 years.

If you single out the race but leave out the cause, then the statement is clearly racist.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#304

Post by waheoo »

Thlom wrote: post #106
waheoo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all whi…

No one is calling all white people racist?

Lots of people are calling all white people racist.

White fragility is a best seller being heavily pushed by people all over America.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#305

Post by DoreenMichele »

waheoo wrote: post #21
doctor_eval wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because there are 10x more aboriginal people in prison, that's not racist policing, that's just natural, is that what you're saying? “There is a sadly high level of Indigenous incarceration, I think it’s about 30% compared to 3% of the population,” Mitchell said, while interviewing the prime minister on Thursday. “But black deaths in custody, I mean, that’s, that’s a furphy, isn’t it? I mean, since the royal c…

No, that isn't racist at all. Unfortunate, an injustice, a tragedy, a disaster, a systemic failure to integrate, yes. But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me. Aboriginal people just commit more crime. That isn't racist. Thats a symptom of a problem that predates most of us sitting here in our armchairs. Talk about the real problem not the symptom, but whatever you do, don't start calling all whi…

But racist? You're going to have to spell that one out for me.

Laws are written by human beings. In the US, a lot of laws were written with explicitly racist goals of denying certain groups equal access. We are still living with that legacy in myriad ways.

If you write laws designed to target certain groups and land them in jail, don't be all shocked when a lot of those folks wind up in jail. And then, yes, "x group just commits more crimes" is a racist statement because it glosses over the context that the "crimes" they commit are "crimes" invented by White power holders to intentionally deny such people rights.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#306

Post by waheoo »

underwater wrote: post #257
Udik wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fact. How can a fact be racist?

It's the literal definition of racism: "the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities." By saying "Aboriginal people just commit more crime" you are declaring that race is a relevant factor in someone's propensity to commit crime.

Nope, you're reading more into my statement than you should if that's what your take away. I mean I literally qualified it straight away, how you got "racist" from that I really don't know.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#307

Post by tweetle_beetle »

drumhead wrote: post #62

Adele, the singer, was photographed at the Nottinghill Carnival (a massive Carribean street festival over the August bank holiday in London) with her hair in Bantu Knots and wearing a bikini top in the colours of the Jamaican flag. As soon as it was on twitter the you started getting tweets from Black Americans about cultural appropriation, but this was met in turn by fierce opposition from African and Carribean post…

In the 90s multiculturalism gained traction as a concept in the UK. Notting Hill Carnival is pretty much the definition of what that represented - a cultural celebration of one community being opened up to and enjoyed by others. I grew up close enough to hear the bass vibrating my windows and went almost every year despite not having any links to its origin communities. Despite this, it played an important part in my life and I feel these experiences informed my political/social outlook.

Cultural appropriation is a genuine phenomenon, but the difference between attending carnival and culturally appropriating it is a subtle one. For me, it comes down to intent and this is very hard to prove.

Am I doing it in solidarity - sharing a celebration with people who's neighbourhood I share and supporting their cultural expression? Or am I impersonating other communities for my own enjoyment? To a third party, it's can be difficult to tell the difference.

> Cultural appropriation doesnt seem to be a problem anywhere else but the USA.

I feel that the countries which have historically dealt with the realities of a multicultural society better have less issues with cultural appropriation - cultural segregation leads to ownership and identity issues. But that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't exist outside the USA. There is a context in which what Adele did is fine, and one in which it isn't - one photo won't tell you which it is.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#308

Post by waheoo »

doctor_eval wrote: post #206
Udik wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fact. How can a fact be racist?

Facts taken out of context can obviously be racist. > Aboriginal people just commit more crime More crime than who ? More crime than " Normal " people? Or, More crime than all other groups with the same economic opportunieis? More crime than groups with the same health issues? More crime than other people who go blind from trachoma and trichiasis despite it no longer being a public health problem in any other develop…

Did you read my comment? I literally laid out the real causes straight away after making that remark, race wasn't one of them.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#309

Post by finnthehuman »

taylodl wrote: post #273
luckylion wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The melting pot metaphor was replaced by a salad bowl, wasn't it? Assimilation (which is the melting pot) is now considered a crime against humanity and the whole "separate but equal" is the new hotness.

It was, and that's not altogether bad. A melting pot implies homogeneity and the loss of one's identity and history. A salad bowl is a pleasant mixing of everything, with each component still retaining its identity - a carrot is still a carrot, a radish is still a radish, and so forth. The irony is if I want to celebrate the zest of a radish then I'm told I'm being insensitive and appropriating the radish culture. As…

>A melting pot implies homogeneity and the loss of one's identity and history.

That's the contemporary narrative, yes. In another light it's just saying "E pluribus unum."

Before it became uncouth to express a spirit of national unity or civic pride, the melting pot was a way of expressing that who we are is defined by our coming together to participate in the great project we call our nation. And as part of that, we're sharing in the uniqueness each of us bring and hard boundaries start "melting" together as we form a shared history and culture. A very chunky concoction constantly getting new pieces added, not a smooth uniform mixture left to simmer.

We now live in an age where "identity" often means participating in a stereotype that's actively gatekept. So the melting pot metaphor had to fall out of favor.

Re: Looking at the experience of black Britons through an American lens

#310

Post by netcan »

Macha wrote: post #245
netcan wrote: post #50

American cultural influence has always been substantial, but since Trump and the hyper-interesting reality TV politics of recent years... it's on a hole new level. Here (in Ireland), the Brexit show (slightly receding) and Trump show have eclipsed local politics by a long shot. ROI politics are a distant fourth (after NI), in terms of affecting the local political conversation. It has become truly absurd. The average…

I think it depends on your social circles. Recent Irish politicians my experience is that most people know: Michael D, Leo Varadkar, Micheal Martin, Mary Lou, Simon Coveney, Phil Hogan, Paul Murphy, Ming Recent UK politicians my experience is that most people know: Boris Johnson, Theresa May, Bercow, Arlene Foster, Jeremy Corbyn Recent US politicians that most people know: Trump, Hilary Clinton, Ted Cruz, Joe Biden,…

There is a practical aspect to it, but a lot of it is pure drama. Yes, Brexit affects us. Brexit was also extremely dramaful.

I agree that it depends on social circles, but IMO, Boris or Trump animate much stronger & livelier opinions than Leo or Martin. Moreover, they can probably identify their political positions on more issues.

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