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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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141–150 of 309 posts

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#141

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

> This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting chain, I run. I'm glad these topics are brought up to the surface and being discussed, because the strategy of voting with your feet is no longer an effective one, given the proliferation of Indian management across the industry. It never quite made sense to me why non-American Indians (or any other foreigners, for…

To a large extent it's because the ruling class in America and Western nations is trying to create a managerial class of English-speaking "global men" (and women) for who things like religion, culture and traditions are kept out of the office at best, if not completely eliminated.

I don't think it's a good idea in the first place, but it doesn't even work, because it tends to crush weaker cultures while only preserving the more resistant ones: Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, the current form of Han-centric ethno-nationalism promoted by the Chinese Communist Party, etc.

I really think we need to do globalization in a different way: free trade between nations, but mostly ethnically homogeneous nations, as it used to be until the 1970s/1980s.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#142
The most bizarre aspect is that the word caste is of Portugese origin (casta - lineage, race, ethnicity) and there is no comparable word in Hinduism. Caste is a conflation of Jati (Birth) and Varna (qualities and karma) which are two very disparate concept. The former, Jati, is a living breathing practiced thing and the latter a conceptual framework that exists in texts which most Hindus never read or even hear of. See [1]. In India, Christians, Muslims and others like Jains practice Jati but it is often mistakenly conflated to them practicing Caste. This quote from the 1921 census of India by the British well summarizes it [2][3]:

"Middleton, one of the two Superintendents of Census operations of 1921, made eloquent remarks about the effect of the British Administration on caste in the Punjab. He observed, I had intended pointing out that there is a very wide revolt against the classification of occupational castes, that these castes have been largely manufactured and almost entirely preserved as separate castes by the British Government, our land records and official documents have added iron bonds to the old rigidity of caste. Caste in itself was rigid among the higher castes, but malleable amongst the lower. We pigeon-holed every one by caste, and if could not find a true caste for them, labelled them with the name of an hereditary occupation. We deplore the caste system and its effect on social and economic problems, but we are largely responsible for the system we deplore. Left to themselves such castes as Sonar (goldsmith) and Lohar (blacksmith) would rapidly disappear and no one would suffer . .. Government's passion for castes and pigeon-holes has led to crystallization of the caste system, which except amongst the aristocratic castes, was really very fluid under indigenous rule ... If the government would ignore caste it would gradually be replaced by something very different amongst the lower castes."

The key point to take away is "caste" was mobile at the lower strata but locked in at the top. I remember reading the Census of India in the 1990s and it had the same conclusion - as one ascended the economic ladder, the caste evolved too, which makes sense.

The British were the first one to categorize everyone into 4 castes which is map every Jati (Birth) into the 4 castes in some Hindu texts. The hierarchical & rigid classification of the 4 castes in India is a figment of the Western Mind. The 4 varnas exist in some Hindu texts as a conceptual formulation but Hinduism has hundreds of texts none of which is central unlike Judaism/Christianity or Islam who each have one central book. A practicing Hindu can choose to believe in any, some or no text sometimes within the same family. There are Hindus who eat meat and ones who foreswear it, Hindus who worship murtis (idols) and ones who are against it, Hindus who believe in a creator god (astika) and Hindus who don't (Nasktika) and so on and so forth. I know practicing Brahmins who will eat meat (and beef!) and non-practicing Hindus who are vegetarian. The variety is bewildering until you realize Hinduism is about seeking your own path. Most Hindu texts are ignored by the vast majority of Hindus and they are unaware of their existence let alone their contents.

There are temples today where priests are only drawn from Dalit "castes", which are the lowest castes. Even a few decades ago there were villages, especially in South India, where Brahmins could not go to Dalit neighborhood on fear of death and vice-versa. Jati is a complex practice that defies simplistic categorization and understanding.

You can infer the Jati of some one from their last name, the closest translation of Jati is Clan. Discrimination based on that is similar to discrimination based on Nationality, Ethnicity, Religion, Alma Mater or Fraternity. Idiotic and parochial. Should be condemned unequivocally. South Indian Reddy(s) who are often found in IT professions will as much discriminate against a Dalit "caste"" from Western India as they will against a farmer caste from Bihar in favor of their kind of castes. Again, stupid and parochial but similar to Japanese discriminating against Korean-Japanese or Han Chinese discriminating against Mongolians and Tibetans or Ivy Leaguers preferring other ivy leaguers, etc.

Conflating all the problems of discrimination in India to a 4-level hierarchy is just a imaginary and lurid construct of the Western mind.

[1] https://www.hinduamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Cas...

[2] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Welfare_of_Scheduled_Ca...

[3] https://twitter.com/BharatDharma/status/1162977793224802304/...

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#143

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Some of what you are saying is true but I had a good experience with Indians maybe because I knew how to react to it. But Indians are extremely diverse. My wife is Brahmin, and I am white, and I've been around Brahmins as a result. I have found Brahmins who come to the US often are not particularly religious but still practice some of old customs. They complain about a lot of Brahmin hate in India and like escaping f…

> This might even be protected by religious freedom.

It's not. Religious practices in violation of social duties or subversive of good order are not protected under free exercise of religion (Reynolds v. United States).

In particular, it's a nigh-certainty that discrimination in matters of employment based on caste will be ruled illegal under Title VII (a fortiori, even employer or customer's preference for individuals of a particular _religion_ cannot be taken into account; a fortiori intra-religious preferences will not be taken into account either. This is almost certainly what will happen in California v. Cisco).

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#144

I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment. India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics. But the the iro…

The problem in discussions like this is that hordes of gullible/uninformed commenters filled with cynicism and essentially colonial senses of superiority are willing to make gross generalizations about other cultures like India without knowing any of the history, culture, precolonial way of living, etc. They eat up skin deep coverage of complicated topics like the article linked here, with stories pushed by certain g…

I am getting downvoted for merely stating the origins of caste system. This speaks volumes about echo chamber in which HN audience is living.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved. So caste discrimination, while it's not a simple as, say, preferring Christians or opposing Muslims, is inherently religious discrimination?

Exactly. There are still many temples(Hindu religious places of worship) in India where lower caste dalits are not allowed to enter.

Your comments remind me of the French Cagot's.

Link to first random thing I could find

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-last-unt...

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#146
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

> Though I really don't understand why lower caste dalits in the US continue to stay Hindu, when they could just change their religion and avoid the whole caste discussion altogether. Perhaps it's just they have strong religious belief in Hinduism? I don't have more than a surface understanding of the religion or how devoted people tend to be, but if I think about the various sects of Christianity, many people of cer…

Hinduism isn't a religion, it's just a word the British made up to refer to all the (non muslim) beliefs in India in convenient shorthand

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#147

I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment. India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics. But the the iro…

> Irony of India is that caste as a system was introduced by European.

The BBC seems to believe that the caste system is 3000 years old.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35650616

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

> interests, hobbies I don't ask about these in interviews, and don't use them to make decisions. You like My Little Pony or have a massive collection of guns? Or both? I literally could not care any less, it's none of my business. > mannerisms I'm not really sure what you'd see here in a regular interview beyond being literate and maybe nervous. The signal here is murky at best -- other than red flags, you shouldn't…

Mannerisms could be anything from how articulate the candidate is and the depth of their vocabulary, to how they dress and the types of questions they ask.

I’m not saying it’s okay to discriminate candidates by it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Go to any finance firm on Wall Street and tell me how many people employed there grew up on food stamps.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

So are you just saying it's already common, or that you are in support of social status profiling?

Most companies look for "cultural fits"? Isn't that a form of caste discrimination? People from similar social background have similar taste hence fits well culturally.Isn't that obvious?

If racial discrimination doesn't exist why Blacks are economically poor across in west?

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

So are you just saying it's already common, or that you are in support of social status profiling?

Yes it’s already common. Look at the concentration and over representation of Ivy League schools in industries like finance. It’s very unlikely those places would even bother interviewing someone with low social status (I.e. poor and grew up on food stamps).

I don’t think it’s great that this happens, it insulates elites from those with working class backgrounds and accelerates inequality.

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