How To Be An Anti-Casteist • Hacker News Board

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#121

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:36 AM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #76

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an interim manager who did this subtly. It wasn't hard for us to catch on after some time, we brought it up to HR and he was disciplined as far as I know, and soon left the company, not sure on what terms. It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status. It's like if your lead said she was trying to determine if they were an inferior race.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

> interests, hobbies

I don't ask about these in interviews, and don't use them to make decisions. You like My Little Pony or have a massive collection of guns? Or both? I literally could not care any less, it's none of my business.

> mannerisms

I'm not really sure what you'd see here in a regular interview beyond being literate and maybe nervous. The signal here is murky at best -- other than red flags, you shouldn't be measuring here.

So, to reiterate: it is absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by social status.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#122

Post by throwawaysea » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:37 AM UTC

drieddust wrote: post #95

I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment. India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics. But the the iro…

The problem in discussions like this is that hordes of gullible/uninformed commenters filled with cynicism and essentially colonial senses of superiority are willing to make gross generalizations about other cultures like India without knowing any of the history, culture, precolonial way of living, etc. They eat up skin deep coverage of complicated topics like the article linked here, with stories pushed by certain groups and largely written by white American, anti-India/Hindu activists, and pro-Pakistan/Islam activists.

“Caste” is an English pejorative used to describe a system in India that was largely in place for economic division of labor, stable passage of knowledge/skills generationally, and other cultural reasons. It wasn’t made for discrimination or classist reasons, but ignorant casual racists (many of whom are posting here) are painting that picture based on very recent history. It’s important to remember that India was the victim of divide and conquer colonialism. “Caste” as a discriminatory concept is a very modern issue, against a background of thousands of years of history.

Understanding this topic in depth and with clarity, rather than in typical Western tones, is exactly what is demanded when people fight for “decolonization” in Western academia. And yet no one here seems to want to decolonize their own perceptions and comments.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#123

Post by kelnos » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:37 AM UTC

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

So here's the thing. I have no doubt that stuff like this does happen. An Indian friend (Brahmin, Indian citizen, has lived in the US for over a decade) has also seen this happen sometimes, and tries to avoid reporting chains with too many Indians down the line, even though it's unlikely he himself would experience discrimination (he just has no patience for ultra-political, back-stabby environments).

But labeling all Indians of a particular caste this way and asserting "this is the truth" is just flat out bigotry, no matter how intellectual and self-effacing your comment sounds. Are there people like this? Sure. Are there a lot of them? Maybe? Even probably? There are also people of other races who act in similar discriminatory ways against other groups, often in much more insidious ways. Is it the same? Maybe not, but it doesn't matter: painting an entire ethnic group with the same broad (negative) brush based on your limited anecdotal experience is just not okay.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#124

Post by canistel » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:39 AM UTC

lowercasteguy wrote: post #112

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

I beg to differ on one point. I am a Christian from Kerala ( a Southern state). On most North Indian encounters, after a while, I start getting quizzed on what my ancestor's caste was. I eventually have to reveal that I have no clue, but we are General Category (not eligible for affirmative action - or reservation) and that sort of ends it usually. If they do not probe, may be they have already made up their mind, and have imagined the worst.

(I am not calling out North Indians. Keralites can make out my caste/denomination from my name)

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#125

Post by dbcurtis » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:39 AM UTC

dzhVAaT8A3Sg wrote: post #113

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Some of what you are saying is true but I had a good experience with Indians maybe because I knew how to react to it. But Indians are extremely diverse. My wife is Brahmin, and I am white, and I've been around Brahmins as a result. I have found Brahmins who come to the US often are not particularly religious but still practice some of old customs. They complain about a lot of Brahmin hate in India and like escaping f…

> Indians have a culture of going the extra mile at work.

No more or less than any other group. I’ve seen, and promoted, hard working Indians. I had to fire an Indian that thought his freshly minted MS degree made him too good for any actual work other than spending his 2 hours of non-nap time per day telling others what to do. And I have worked with everything in between. Law of large numbers should come to mind here.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#126

Post by troyjfarrell » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

My experience (anecdote) is the opposite.

I worked for an Indian manager in a game studio. I don't know what caste, except that he wasn't Christian or Muslim, probably because he didn't think it worth mentioning. He hired based on demonstrated skill, so we had a diverse group of coworkers. He actively encouraged the group to eat together, arranging meals out with careful consideration for the group's preferences. He was approachable, personable, considerate, friendly and kind.

People are people and stereotypes do not always fit.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#127

Post by LordFast » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:41 AM UTC

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

> This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting chain, I run.

I'm glad these topics are brought up to the surface and being discussed, because the strategy of voting with your feet is no longer an effective one, given the proliferation of Indian management across the industry.

It never quite made sense to me why non-American Indians (or any other foreigners, for that matter) are allowed to manage Americans, unless of course company itself is Indian or foreign to begin with.

Managing people is an inherently cultural and people-oriented job (and it's NOT an easy job, with consequences cascading well beyond one's tenure). Foreigners are very unlikely to hold enough of the same values as their team as to be qualified to be the manager. The exception here are folks who have already become fully Americanized, in which case there wouldn't be the kind of problematic behaviors you described above.

It's the same reason why new immigrants to a country don't go straight into becoming MPs and Presidents, regardless of their backgrounds and qualifications.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#128

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:41 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #66

talmr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Indian and I've heard things like "koncha jaticha" said casually in a professional setting... Meaning which caste are you? I was born in India and moved here when I was in school. It was shocking to me as well when I heard stuff like this.

Ah, I don’t speak much Hindi. Are there terms in English I should look out for? Ones that are meant to be subtle.

"Where are you from?" "Where did your parents live?" "Where were you born?" "What do your parents do?"

I'm not Indian, but have heard these used in a derogatory setting. It's hard to disentangle from casual conversation, but if these questions arise suddenly and unprompted (like the first thing you're asked) it's a flag. Another is being asked a question in a specific dialect to see how you respond.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#129

Post by kelnos » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:43 AM UTC

lowercasteguy wrote: post #116

throwawaywg wrote: post #77

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against th…

> Though I really don't understand why lower caste dalits in the US continue to stay Hindu, when they could just change their religion and avoid the whole caste discussion altogether.

Perhaps it's just they have strong religious belief in Hinduism? I don't have more than a surface understanding of the religion or how devoted people tend to be, but if I think about the various sects of Christianity, many people of certain sects wouldn't even consider switching to a different sect because they are so invested in their particular flavor of Christianity. And I'd think being Hindu and considering converting to Christianity or Islam would be an even larger jump in belief systems. It's not like switching brands of car.

I guess in my experience (in US culture at least), "just change your religion" is actually a super big deal and is a huge decision that takes an extraordinary reason. Even discrimination doesn't pass that bar for many people.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#130

Post by renewiltord » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:43 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #24

There has been a lot of outrage over the past week in India over the rape of a lower caste woman by upper castes. The police sided with the culprits and forced the family to cremate the victim to destroy evidence. This is a common tactic by upper castes to spread terror and keep the lower castes in line. Goes to show how entrenched the system is especially outside the big cities.

This could be any week in the last ten years at least. There's always outrage, there's always protests, and nothing changes.