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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone could be a potential murderer. I had a coworker who committed murder-suicide, and I nobody saw it coming. In the same vein, anyone could be rehabilitated.

> anyone could be rehabilitated Many systems disagree with this and have sentencing systems which allow a true life sentence. Sometimes this is due to a mental health aspect.

Putting an ill person in jail for a lifetime sounds extremely wrong.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#462

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

>"But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of their record?" I would not feel comfortable sitting next to someone who was substantially more capable of committing a serious, violen…

Some friends and I just happened to watch Trading Places (1983, Eddie Murphy, Dan Aykroyd) last night, and it deals directly with this question, and got us talking about it.

I work with a guy who did some time, but I'm not sure what for. Probably drug-related, if I had to guess, but I've never asked. He's a model employee, as long as you include a snarky wit in your model. And I feel perfectly comfortable around him.

There are people around who DO creep me out, but that's not even slightly correlated, in my little sample, with the people who've been to prison.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think any crime inflicting bodily harm is relevant, as long as you work near people with bodies.

What you said implies that any person that has committed a violent crime remains a danger to other people, forever - and should also be punished, forever. This is what the American justice system is like. In a saner world, (only) people who are a danger to others would be separated from the society, and being set free would be and indication that you are no longer a danger. In the US, being released from prison signa…

I dunno, it takes a lot more than a fistfight to get put in prison for violent offense. Sure people can change but only a solid work history or trusted recommendation can give you any real confidence. You may have to fire this person, or they may have to report to an abusive manage for some period of time. Some offenses are difficult to walk away from untainted.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think any crime inflicting bodily harm is relevant, as long as you work near people with bodies.

What you said implies that any person that has committed a violent crime remains a danger to other people, forever - and should also be punished, forever. This is what the American justice system is like. In a saner world, (only) people who are a danger to others would be separated from the society, and being set free would be and indication that you are no longer a danger. In the US, being released from prison signa…

Conversely, someone who was already willing to violently attack another person is probably much more likely to do it again?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#465
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Americans talk about "freedom" but their definition is largely narrow and specific to political issues they feel strongly about. The same people who talk about "small government" simultaneously use the federal government to bludgeon states into submissions on issues such as legalized marijuana. It's usually something that's used to justify a specific political position and not an overall sentiment of allowing ac…

There is no such thing as actual freedom. You exercising your "freedom" almost always means imposing upon someone else's. In your example wouldn't someone having to provide a service to a LGBTQ person even though it is against their religious beliefs be a violation of their freedom of religion just as much as refusing to provide them service would be a violation of the LGBTQ person's freedom? "Freedom" is used a lot…

Not all exercise of freedoms comes at someone else's expense.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell. Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?

Writing an entire operating system in an inherently insecure language?

This seems to be a pretty popular crime.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and that's another thing that wouldn't show up in statistics directly. Although it's important to note that alcohol was illegal, and tobacco is becoming increasingly low-status and accordingly restricted. The end of Prohibition meant that the enforcement apparatus for it needed something new to do. I believe this was another contributing factor to continuing the broken logic of Prohibition with new substances.

That's... actually pretty interesting concept to consider. Sometimes I do wonder how much better we could all get along if some substances had relaxed or dropped restrictions. When you think about it, there's the mental toll on users about public disapproval amplified by the legal status. On top of that, the divide on the non user side about someone being a "lawbreaker". Just seems to cause a lot of division. On top…

I worry that we have raised a bunch of people in the mindset of "if the government allows it, it's safe" and rather than thinking critically about it may assume that they just figured out it was safe. The more drug-tolerant cultures (such as the Netherlands and Portugal) have "evolved" an understanding of drugs culturally such that you don't see a bunch of locals stoned out of their gourds in the coffeeshops all day. I hate the "war on drugs" and the terrible costs it has imposed, but I think that flipping the switch to anything goes is unlikely to end well.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#468

I do wonder why people are so motivated to help the perpetrators of violent crimes. You could take that same energy and help the victims instead. I doubt whoever suffered whatever violence it was that merited 13 years has forgotten the whole thing by now. I doubt they're stoked to see their attacker off to start a cushy new job. You don't get 13 years for something trivial.* If after that time you find it to get a jo…

Because there's already endless energy and motivation for helping the victims, but many like you openly question whether former criminals should even be able to get a job. It's no surprise that some find the energy to focus on problems like this that are overlooked by most and often ignored.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#469
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this account is really going to invoke the celestial teapot as a defense against accepting that there are ex-cons who want to have a normal life, its handlers should shut it down and retrain the algorithm.

Celestial teapot is a defense against people making claims without providing sufficient evidence to support it. By invoking the celestial teapot, I am not taking the opposite position of the one being made, I am taking the position of a rationalist who only accepts claims when sufficient evidence is presented. Let me illustrate with an example: A: Elephants are pink. B: What makes you say they're pink? A: How can you…

It also needs to learn to parse other threads for facts and reply with more than just a keyword definition. This is ELIZA-level bot programming.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#470
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, that would Intensivtäter (literally intensive perpetrators). It's not rare to have young men with dozens of convictions for assault, breaking and entering, mugging etc. They typically don't get any jail time and will collect more indictments between being arrested and seeing a judge. For Berlin they're having a list of 500 people, almost all male.

I wonder how much better you could make society if you managed to take the worst 1% of scumbags and remove them.

The power vacuum would soon be filled by the ambitious among the remaining 99%.
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