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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#391

Post by filleokus »

Dayshine wrote: post #378
tomjen3 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree on that. As a programmer we have access to more than most accountants. How hard would it be for most programmers to put in a backdoor they could later claim was a bug? Criminal convictions are perhaps not the best measure of trustability.

> As a programmer we have access to more than most accountants Do we? What does the average programmer working on internal business applications, b2b services or CMSs have access to that is of any risk?

It's always hard to estimate what the average case is for something like this. But I would guess that the average programmer do have access to "production data". What that contain is obviously industry specific, and the most sensitive industries are (hopefully) well regulated and not average, like health care or finance.

But I would guess that programmers at Tinder/Grindr/$datingSite had access to production data in the early days. Probably many SaaS things, perhaps doing stuff in the HR/recruitment/time reporting area. For B2B I'm guessing many programmers have access to business sensitive data, that competitors would like to get their hands on. At the least I would guess that at least the average backend developer have access to all contact info / emails for all users in services they work on.

Obviously all best practices say that random Joe programmer shouldn't have access to these things, but I don't think that match the _average_ reality.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#392

Post by alexashka »

Igelau wrote: post #371
alexashka wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? What opportunities do people who end up criminals lack that immigrants or refugees have? Let's narrow it down to countries without slavery in their past to simplify matters. > What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity? I didn't make the claim that t…

If this account is really going to invoke the celestial teapot as a defense against accepting that there are ex-cons who want to have a normal life, its handlers should shut it down and retrain the algorithm.

Celestial teapot is a defense against people making claims without providing sufficient evidence to support it.

By invoking the celestial teapot, I am not taking the opposite position of the one being made, I am taking the position of a rationalist who only accepts claims when sufficient evidence is presented.

Let me illustrate with an example:

A: Elephants are pink.

B: What makes you say they're pink?

A: How can you claim elephants are not pink?!

B: Huh? See celestial teapot (I never said they are not pink)

A: If you're going to use the celestial teapot as a defense for elephants not being pink...

B: ...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#394

Post by mrlala »

alexashka wrote: post #355
mrlala wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I? Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay…

> You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? What opportunities do people who end up criminals lack that immigrants or refugees have? Let's narrow it down to countries without slavery in their past to simplify matters. > What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity? I didn't make the claim that t…

Not responding to a troll account, have a great day.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#395

Post by larrywright »

tomjen3 wrote: post #370
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #130

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my crim…

Hard disagree on that. As a programmer we have access to more than most accountants. How hard would it be for most programmers to put in a backdoor they could later claim was a bug? Criminal convictions are perhaps not the best measure of trustability.

This is why all non-trivial applications need to have a code review process and a CI/CD pipeline that ensures that no application goes into production except via that pipeline, and that all code is reviewed prior to deployment. It’s not a guarantee, of course, but it’s a start.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#396

Post by Dahoon »

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

>someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"

That would be 100% of people who isn't either a baby or has somehow no way to move arms and legs enough to wield a knife, gun, poison, etc. It is not a question of capability but the situations you are put in and live through. Otherwise you are saying criminality is in the genes.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#397

Post by Tycho »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #93
thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Let's break this down. Someone commits murder, and gets sent to prison for 13 years. They are out now. How do we deal with them? 1. If everyone says that they will no longer want to work with such a person, especially rich people, who can enforce that want, that person will end up working with poor people. The rich people are making a classist argument. 2. Worse, if that person, cannot even get bad jobs, they will be…

I suppose another possibility is that the market just deals with it. Through wages, employee retention, or 'danger money' for the non-convict colleagues.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#398

Post by ajmurmann »

tomjen3 wrote: post #373
lostcolony wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super curious - do you feel that all those crimes you mentioned should have life sentences? 'cause I mean...if not, what was the point of the jail term? Depending on perspective, it might be rehabilitative, or it might be punitive, but either way, time served should equate to a clear record, no? If not, you're either saying they need further punishment, or you don't believe that they've been rehabilitated, in whi…

If you beat a man up such that he suffers lifelong injuries, it seems only fair to me that your punishment should also be life long. I don't think you should necessarily spend all that time in prison, but not having access to trusted jobs is not comparable to being in pain every day for the rest of your life. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if more punishments were metered out in the form of community service.

This points to a cultural difference there that might be at the core the argument. In Europe prison has rehabilitation as one of it's goals. In the US it's almost entirely about punishment.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#399

Post by jbperry »

mullen wrote: post #303
vorpalhex wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Texas, if you pull a background check on someone you're required to provide a copy to them which I always felt was a good minimal standard - at least then you know that someone pulled the check and what they found.

California is the same. Also, if someone runs a credit check, you can also request a copy of the report.

As far as background checks in California, I thought they were only required to provide a copy if they decide to rescind their offer?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#400

Post by Jackypot »

I do wonder why people are so motivated to help the perpetrators of violent crimes. You could take that same energy and help the victims instead. I doubt whoever suffered whatever violence it was that merited 13 years has forgotten the whole thing by now. I doubt they're stoked to see their attacker off to start a cushy new job. You don't get 13 years for something trivial.* If after that time you find it to get a job, well, you kinda have to wear that.

*for non-violent stuff, like drugs, obviously you can. I'm referring to this specific example, which is described as violent. Non-violence shouldn't impact your future in the same way.

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