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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#421
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I? Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay…

To help gain perspective, you can read these generic opinions about "criminals" by replacing the word with "rapists" in your head. Does this feel just as noble?: ... resort to rape to try to stay afloat ... resort to killing your son to try to stay afloat ... resort to beating their wife to try to stay afloat Yea, it's hard for them to avoid those actions but they still destroyed other people's lives and opportunitie…

It is funny, because neither rapes nor domestic violence are why people are actually in prison. Both are actually crimes that pretty low successful sentence and incarceration rates.

The prisons being full is not about law enforcement locking up these. It is more of them ignoring these.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#422

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

> Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"?

I do it several times a week (pre-covid, now it's just a couple).

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose the person didn't commit murder, but had intentionally and violently raped a ten year old? We can't make the punishment the same, or he would just murder her, yet I don't think such a person should every be let out.

I didn't want to dive down away from murder, because then I'll have to pick my "line". I'm not prepared to do that for various reasons. For example, I don't know the punishments for the crime you mentioned. Murder is the "easiest" crime to use to make my arguments. And even then I have to specify stuff like "intentional without a damn good reason".

Every case is nuanced. You can’t say murder == life without screwing something up in the system. It’s not simple or trivial to solve.

Luckily many places around the world solve it differently so we can look at those systems and observe.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#424
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members. - Ghandi

Not to disparage this sentiment, but > Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness. - Gandhi (Kaffir was a slur used against black South Afri…

Goes to show that nobody is beyond prejudice. Even Gandhi needed to evolve his views to understand his fellow humans, so it would be dangerous to assume things like "racism in America is past" or "diversity training is useless". We all need to work on this stuff.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#425
I'm very heartened by the quantity--and quality of responses addressing the original post. When I launched my new company, 70 Million Jobs, on Hacker News, it emerged as one of the platform's most commented-upon posts.

In the intervening three years since, my team and I have served on the front lines of the efforts to help the 70 million Americans--1 in 3 adults--with a record land a job.

First, the facts: there's a ~75% chance that after release from jail or prison, an individual will be rearrested. Nearly all of these people will be unemployed at time of arrest.

Contrariwise, those that do manage to land a job almost never recidivate, and in fact, go on to lead satisfying, productive lives.

Perhaps counter-intuitively, these folks do incredibly well on the job: a SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) report found that 80% of hiring managers believe that when hiring someone with a record, "the quality of hire is as good as if not better than when hiring someone with no record."

While many companies hang on to age-old myths relating to on-the-job behavior of this population (they'll be trouble makers, they'll commit crimes on the job, they'll be violent, they'll disrupt our workforce), the data suggest the very opposite. In fact, because they generally have so few opportunities, they tend to work harder with a better attitude than co-workers, because they know another job is not necessarily available.

I continue to find it shocking that companies that pride themselves on making data-driven decisions have in place hiring matrices that hearken back to another time when attitudes--and crimes--were very different. Most HR professionals have no idea why existing parameters are what they are.

It behooves us as a society to rethink our approach to criminal justice in general and reentry, specifically:

1. Almost everyone incarcerated will be released eventually. If they can't find a reasonable job, they can't buy food, care for their families and put a roof over their heads. What would you do under such circumstances. 2. The economic cost of reincarceration is estimated at more that $100 billion annually. 3. The social cost of recidivism is inestimable: lives are ruined, families are torn apart, communities are decimated, new victims are created, cops are shot, etc. 4. An intelligent plan to get folks working would directly correlate to reduced recidivism. The net cost would drop dramatically enough so as to fund the homeless crisis.

People with sophisticated skills--live programmers--have it much easier than the rank-in-file incarcerated population, who often have little education and less job experience.

Rarely are important social issues so cut and dry: Get people jobs and things get much better. Rarer still are issues that Republicans and Democrats can agree upon.

This is an imminently fixable problem.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#426

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my crim…

What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell. Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?

In the United States "Unauthorized use of a computer" is a felony.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving petty criminals a chance to reform is important since most petty crime is driven by factors other than inherent criminality of the individual but it should not be possible to just keep racking up petty offenses to the detriment of everyone who's victimized by them.

Yes, but the argument of "detriment to everyone" is only used to further lengthen sentences, but never address any of the inputs that lead to such crime. And that's because of the draconian character of the US concerning law and punishment.

I agree that we need to work on the frontend problems that are driving so much crime and that we should prefer to be rehabilitative instead of punitive in our approach to crime; however, it's not obvious to me how being punitive dissuades us from addressing inputs--could you elaborate?

(note that I'm a different 'throwaway' than the OP)

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#428

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Let's break this down. Someone commits murder, and gets sent to prison for 13 years. They are out now. How do we deal with them? 1. If everyone says that they will no longer want to work with such a person, especially rich people, who can enforce that want, that person will end up working with poor people. The rich people are making a classist argument. 2. Worse, if that person, cannot even get bad jobs, they will be…

I very honestly have less problem with murder then something like past harassment. Like, unless it was not random burst of violence, that must won't happen to me or someone I know. So that person generally working is lowering chance of recidivism for little cost to me.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between "This person should be imprisoned and completely seperated from society" and "I should have the right to not work with violent people". I have no problem with a convicted murderer being released from prison, but I'm not going to invite them over for dinner.

Then... don't.

I agree. A lot of people in this comment section are arguing that "Then don't" shouldn't be an option.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans have been completely conditioned into accepting all sorts of trouble while maintaining the idea of freedom in contradiction to that.

Many Americans talk about "freedom" but their definition is largely narrow and specific to political issues they feel strongly about. The same people who talk about "small government" simultaneously use the federal government to bludgeon states into submissions on issues such as legalized marijuana. It's usually something that's used to justify a specific political position and not an overall sentiment of allowing ac…

There is no such thing as actual freedom. You exercising your "freedom" almost always means imposing upon someone else's. In your example wouldn't someone having to provide a service to a LGBTQ person even though it is against their religious beliefs be a violation of their freedom of religion just as much as refusing to provide them service would be a violation of the LGBTQ person's freedom?

"Freedom" is used a lot when politics comes up not because it is a way to justify political positions but because politics is to a great degree the arguing of whose freedoms trumps another's under what circumstances.

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