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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#401

Post by larrywright »

tomjen3 wrote: post #373
lostcolony wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super curious - do you feel that all those crimes you mentioned should have life sentences? 'cause I mean...if not, what was the point of the jail term? Depending on perspective, it might be rehabilitative, or it might be punitive, but either way, time served should equate to a clear record, no? If not, you're either saying they need further punishment, or you don't believe that they've been rehabilitated, in whi…

If you beat a man up such that he suffers lifelong injuries, it seems only fair to me that your punishment should also be life long. I don't think you should necessarily spend all that time in prison, but not having access to trusted jobs is not comparable to being in pain every day for the rest of your life. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if more punishments were metered out in the form of community service.

Your attitude towards someone convicted of a criminal act isn’t uncommon, but it’s short-sighted. If the judicial system determines that the appropriate punishment for a crime is X years, then at the end of that time they should be given a chance at a fresh start. There are limits, of course, perhaps you don’t want to give them a security clearance, or a job that requires carrying a gun. Someone convicted of molesting children should probably never hold a job that gives them contact with children.

In the US at least, having a felony conviction (and the bar for that is not that high) is effectively a lifetime punishment. It’s incredibly difficult for someone with a felony conviction on their record to get a job with potential. That’s a big part of why the recidivism rate for felons is so high. They often don’t have many options to make a living.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#402

Post by lostcolony »

tomjen3 wrote: post #373
lostcolony wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super curious - do you feel that all those crimes you mentioned should have life sentences? 'cause I mean...if not, what was the point of the jail term? Depending on perspective, it might be rehabilitative, or it might be punitive, but either way, time served should equate to a clear record, no? If not, you're either saying they need further punishment, or you don't believe that they've been rehabilitated, in whi…

If you beat a man up such that he suffers lifelong injuries, it seems only fair to me that your punishment should also be life long. I don't think you should necessarily spend all that time in prison, but not having access to trusted jobs is not comparable to being in pain every day for the rest of your life. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if more punishments were metered out in the form of community service.

That's the "punitive" side of things. Certainly, it seems "fair" to ensure the punishment is equal to the crime, but fair isn't the same as just. Why don't you go Code of Hammurabi on someone, and inflict the same kind of injury? The logic still holds. Of course, it now requires people willing to commit torture and rape and the like, to equal the crime, but that's the logical conclusion of trying to be "fair".

But even without taking it to its conclusion, I'd contend "fairness" as you define it there isn't necessarily the best outcome for society; an ex-hacker is probably an excellent choice when hiring for electronic security, an ex-robber an excellent choice for hiring for physical security, etc. Even a murderer can go on to great things that benefit society. I mean, hell, Miguel De Cervantes, author of Don Quixote, the first modern novel, wrote his first published work while in prison. The Birdman of Alcatraz (Robert Stroud), a murderer, published major works in ornithology, and found a cure for a bird disease. Rehabilitated criminals can still benefit all of us, as well as redeem themselves in their own eyes by doing good for themselves and their loved ones.

But all that aside, you're saying you believe the additional punishment should be societal scorn carried out by vigilantes (i.e., average citizens deciding the person shouldn't hold a job even though they've paid the price the courts decided on)? That hardly seems just or 'fair'.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#403

Post by lopmotr »

mrlala wrote: post #334
alexashka wrote: post #233

> The way that ex-felons are treated in society is despicable, no wonder there's a 55% recidivism rate if you get blocked at every attempt to becoming a productive member of society. What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'? It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. There'll always be unlucky exceptions and if your goal…

>It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I? Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay…

To help gain perspective, you can read these generic opinions about "criminals" by replacing the word with "rapists" in your head. Does this feel just as noble?:

... resort to rape to try to stay afloat

... resort to killing your son to try to stay afloat

... resort to beating their wife to try to stay afloat

Yea, it's hard for them to avoid those actions but they still destroyed other people's lives and opportunities. I think we should be helping troubled people before they become so desperately troubled that they resort to violent crime. That includes all the people who restrained themselves and don't get the sympathy for being an ex-con but still have a terrible life and desperately need help.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#404

Post by dragonwriter »

alexashka wrote: post #233

> The way that ex-felons are treated in society is despicable, no wonder there's a 55% recidivism rate if you get blocked at every attempt to becoming a productive member of society. What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'? It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. There'll always be unlucky exceptions and if your goal…

> It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly.

Arguably, that's quite hard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...

Not being in the class of people against whom the law is likely to be enforced to it's fullest extent is either very easy or very difficult, depending largely on circumstances of birth (though some other factors play a role.)

Being born white and not in the lowest economic class helps a lot in the US, for instance.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#405

Post by lopmotr »

alexashka wrote: post #355
mrlala wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I? Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay…

> You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? What opportunities do people who end up criminals lack that immigrants or refugees have? Let's narrow it down to countries without slavery in their past to simplify matters. > What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity? I didn't make the claim that t…

Criminals often have severe psychological problems that immigrants don't have. Their mothers didn't love them (that's surprisingly important!), their caregivers neglected or abused them. They have intellectual disabilities or mental illness. They can't just shake off the way their brain was programmed since birth.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#406

Post by lioeters »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #315
Chernobog wrote: post #53

I was convicted for drugs and firearms in Norway. The only time it has ever come up during my many years as a programmer, was when a consulting company I worked for had the police IT service as a candidate for my next project. Since it was for the police, a background check would be required. I politely told my department head that I would not pass that, and a short summary of my case. At that time I had worked for a…

The U.S. is just so awful.

As an expatriate American, I just hope people recognize that "America the beautiful" does exist, there's a lot to love about the country, its people, land and culture.

It's sad how that's overshadowed by their corporations, politicians, and somewhat intentionally broken system - but I choose to believe that good sense will prevail eventually, when enough people care and do something about it - as they've done time and again through history.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#407

Post by [deleted] »

mullen wrote: post #303
vorpalhex wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Texas, if you pull a background check on someone you're required to provide a copy to them which I always felt was a good minimal standard - at least then you know that someone pulled the check and what they found.

California is the same. Also, if someone runs a credit check, you can also request a copy of the report.

[deleted]

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#408

Post by Reedx »

wolco2 wrote: post #337
mullen wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California is the same. Also, if someone runs a credit check, you can also request a copy of the report.

Required to vs can request is a huge difference.

Maybe their compare function is written in javascript. :)

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#409

Post by tommica »

alexashka wrote: post #392
Igelau wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this account is really going to invoke the celestial teapot as a defense against accepting that there are ex-cons who want to have a normal life, its handlers should shut it down and retrain the algorithm.

Celestial teapot is a defense against people making claims without providing sufficient evidence to support it. By invoking the celestial teapot, I am not taking the opposite position of the one being made, I am taking the position of a rationalist who only accepts claims when sufficient evidence is presented. Let me illustrate with an example: A: Elephants are pink. B: What makes you say they're pink? A: How can you…

> What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'?

The same answer as you would have to the question "what makes you want to be a 'productive member of a society'?"

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#410

Post by Meph504 »

taloft wrote: post #382
Meph504 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put yourself in a companies position, if you hire someone who had a violent past, and they commit a violent crime while at work, or to a coworker or client off the clock, the company will be held liable, no two ways about it, it will come back on the company. Additionally, there are countless contracts that require you specifically not have anyone with criminal convictions, and require full background checks to be aw…

If no employer is willing to “put themselves at risk”, what choice do ex-convicts have but to commit more crimes? May as well give them a life sentence in prison for anything that makes them an employment risk.

This is a failure of the state, the purpose for incarceration is retribution, incapacitation, deterrence and rehabilitation.

Rehabilitation, is the most important aspect for a person who has been in prison to be able to return to society. Storing people in a hellish place does not fix them, it only punishes them, with out counseling and education, how is a person who is released in anyway more prepared than when they went in?

I agree the current system makes it damn near impossible for someone with a conviction to get a second chance. That issue should be address at the corrections level, and the services provided after conviction.

But most companies do not have the resources, education, or ability to help rehabilitate someone, so should we blindly hire on hope that this person won't cause harm to the people a company is responsible for, should the company forgo the opportunities that require your staff not have convictions, that is just an unrealistic expectation.

Think about it like this, say there was a piece of equipment that had malfunctioned and caused serious injury to someone, and your company then wanted to bring that piece of equipment into your office, knowing that there is a 44% chance that it will malfunction in someway again, and there is a 25% chance that the malfunction would cause serious harm to someone, would you be comfortable with that choice, if that malfunction happened do you think the company would and should be liable for this?

There are too many situations, where trying to make this right for someone with a record would have too many of my employees face situations I don't think they should have to in a work place. with 1 in 5 women being the victim of sexual assault or rape, how could I ask any of them to work side by side with someone who was convicted of it, I can't insure their safety, and I don't feel it just to put them in that situation. Same with someone who has been the victim of any violent crime.

I think it boils down to person choice I suppose, and for me, I won't put the people I am responsible for at risk, not the company that I helped built. If that makes me a bad person, I think I can live with that.

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