My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#191

Post by kyleee » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #173

hnracer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's true, there's no comparison between (a) and (b) in terms of how bad the original offense is. One is murder and the other is a thought crime.

I can compare anything I like, actually. That's my right and my responsibility as the one who determines who comes to work with me and my colleagues. You can say that all "though crimes" are incomparable to legal indictments, and when you are hiring people that is your right as well.

Would you prefer to be murdered or to recieve a racist remark directed towards you?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#192

Post by kazinator » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

I'm sorry; if I'm aware of a violent crime history, I'm tossing that application into the recycle bin.

Do you want to be exposing co-workers to someone like that?

Isn't an organization exposing themselves to liability? Suppose you knowingly hire someone with a violent history and they cause a violent incident.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#193

Post by edbob » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #51

secondcoming wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> depending on the crime, obviously Well, this is the big part that's missing from the story. 13 years seems like it was a big deal. Is it even legal to ask someone who was in prison what their crime was during an interview?

The tweet says that it was a "serious, violent crime", and that they got out early on parole, so the 13 years wasn't even the full sentence. With that amount of jail time, it looks like she murdered someone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_punishments_for_murder...

13 years served is pretty short for murder in most states. It's more likely aggravated assault, robbery, or less likely something like negligent homicide (e.g., killing someone in a car wreck while intoxicated). Assaults and robberies are far more common.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#194

Post by ponker » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #82

s_dev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A criminal record in the US is a curse for life The US system probably is overly harsh -- in Ireland it's probaby overly lenient and the pendulum affect is that we've criminals being called in to court with literally hundreds of prior convictions and then they're let off with suspended sentences and then go straight back to what they were doing. Equally frustrating -- to see the guilty just walk off and laugh as it…

> Equally frustrating -- to see the guilty just walk off and laugh as it is to see the redeemed struggle having conceded their mistakes. That of course depends on your value system. There are many that consider sending an innocent person to jail far worse than letting a guilty person walk free, and I’m sure you can apply a similar worldview here as well.

Getting guilt right and what punishment to dispense to the guilty are different questions. For example you could have 100-member juries with unanimous verdicts required, but also execute anyone convicted of any crime.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#195

Post by sebmellen » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

hnracer wrote: post #181

staticassertion wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can compare anything I like, actually. That's my right and my responsibility as the one who determines who comes to work with me and my colleagues. You can say that all "though crimes" are incomparable to legal indictments, and when you are hiring people that is your right as well.

I didn't mean that there's no way you can make a comparison in a literal sense. I mean that it takes a particularly screwed up and deranged individual to think that murder and racist thoughts are somehow equivalent on the moral scale. Also, I'm not claiming that this is the position you are taking, only that it would be deranged if it is the one you are in fact taking.

Thanks for making this point. This is what I was trying to get at. Racist thoughts, to some, are seen as offences in the same way murder is, while they're not.

Murder is a very clearly defined criminal act, to tweet something racist is an expression of free speech. Racism is inexcusable, but in an entirely different way than murder.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#196

Post by hash872 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

beisner wrote: post #155

hash872 wrote: post #109

Using the logic of some people in this thread, the day after a convinced child molester gets out of prison, he should be able to start working at a day care. Why not? He served his time- you don't want to punish him indefinitely, right? Also a convicted fraudster can start working again immediately in a bank, or as a financial advisor for your parents- after all, he served his time, right? And a convicted Mafioso or…

I think there’s a reasonable middle ground, which is: employers can discriminate based on record only if that crime has a direct relationship to the nature of the employment and the position provides a clear opportunity for abuse in the same fashion as the original crime. Ie people who commit fraud can’t work in financial services, people who hurt children can’t work in education/childcare, people convicted of corrup…

Sure, I kind agree. But- as an employer, am I mandated to hire a pedophile for my software developer job? I just object morally, and the company is my private property. Is this really a good use of state power, to compel me to hire an evil person?

Anyways, it'd be impossible to enforce, because I could just say the pedophile failed my coding test. Even if he sued me, it'd be very unlikely to prove his case, and he's probably starting at a deficit with a court.

The issue is that people here are confusing levels of analysis- 'society' should help ex-offenders find gainful employment, but I am not 'society', I am just one company. Society should also clean up pollution, but that doesn't mean that I'm personally obligated to scrub a Superfund site myself

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#197

Post by seer » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #110

koiz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.

Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, bu…

In Bulgaria (EU) they often ask you to provide proof that you are currently not being prosecuted, but apart from that, the only time I’ve been asked to get a criminal record was when applying for a citizenship. And having one is not something that would stop the process, but can be grounds for denial.

Programmers can get a free pass for a lot of things here though.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#198

Post by kazinator » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #11

caseyscottmckay wrote: post #8

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?

> People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets ...

Well, not sitting-in-the-oval-office people, but anyway.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#199

Post by staticassertion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

hnracer wrote: post #181

staticassertion wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can compare anything I like, actually. That's my right and my responsibility as the one who determines who comes to work with me and my colleagues. You can say that all "though crimes" are incomparable to legal indictments, and when you are hiring people that is your right as well.

I didn't mean that there's no way you can make a comparison in a literal sense. I mean that it takes a particularly screwed up and deranged individual to think that murder and racist thoughts are somehow equivalent on the moral scale. Also, I'm not claiming that this is the position you are taking, only that it would be deranged if it is the one you are in fact taking.

This whole conversation started off with "any crime" vs "a definitively racist tweet", not "murder" vs "thought crime".

Trying to consider any of these things in isolation is worthless and not really something that makes sense to discuss, it's just a sillier version of the trolley problem. Context is going to be everything.

Could someone convicted of murder be worth hiring? Yeah, sure, I'm not willing to say that that's not the case - what if they had an untreated medical condition, just as one potential contextual element? It's not worth discussing because it will end up with a "but what if but what if but what if".

The point I will definitely make is the original point I made - that if I determine someone to be a racist that is important to me, and if I find that someone is a criminal I will need more context before I determine that it is important to me.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#200

Post by bluGill » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #153

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #130

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my crim…

What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell. Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?

If you write software for banks, than all the crimes a banker could commit are easy for your to hide in code. If you write software for pharmacies then you can probably figure out how to to get any prescription you want to abuse into the system.