My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#161

Post by staticassertion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

celdon25 wrote: post #146

staticassertion wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know? I don't understand what you're getting at.

Many these days have got on a bandwagon of calling people out as racists if they don't fall in line with the Democrat party platform or support the censorship agenda of big tech. As that diminishes the real problem of racism would you be willing to commit to not hiring anyone contributing to that problem as well? (Obviously this is rhetorical)

If it's rhetorical why are you asking me? What do you want from this exchange?

I have no interest in discussing who is or isn't racist, I'm saying that an already defined as racist tweet would be something worth considering in a hiring process.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#162

Post by sebmellen » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #144

sebmellen wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.

As am I.

The point I was trying to make was that there isn't really a "path to rehabilitation" for people who have made very minor missteps online. In the case of the linked TED talk, the persecuted woman made a mistake, and was not a "career-racist". I think even accusing her of racism is a distortion of the word — she made a bad joke in bad taste.

Meanwhile, there is an established, albeit broken path to rehabilitation for ex-convicts. There is also a certain faction of the left which seems to be more willing to accept prison reform than "tweet-reform".

I think it should be far more easy to rehabilitate oneself from a bad tweet than a murder, and that they are entirely different classes of offences.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#163

Post by AlexTWithBeard » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

minitoar wrote: post #123

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?

It's a tweet that explicitly promotes superiority or inferiority of one race relative to other races.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#164

Post by 205guy » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #62

nendroid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

> people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous.

I don't think this is necessarily true. We just haven't seen many racist people make amends and ask for forgiveness. I believe people can change and if they do, they should be reintegrated into the workplace.

I hadn't given it much thought before, but I asked myself if I would hire or work with a former criminal qualified for the job. It's a touchy subject, but I decided I would if they are rehabilitated: shown remorse, served a sentence, and working to integrate society.

And I realized the same goes for a racist statement (or sexist or anti-LGBTQ). Racism get tried in the court of public opinion, and then there is a sentence of being shunned in the form of unemployability. But if the formerly racist person shows remorse and publicly states they have changed, I would be willing to hire/work with them.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#165

Post by content_sesh » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

staticassertion wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

The vast majority of those incarcerated in America have taken plea deals. The only source I could find from a government agency is a 1984 report from the BJS but it's fairly staggering - median ratio of 11 guilty pleas for every trial[1].

More recent nongovernmental sources paint a very similar picture [2][3]

So whatever your feeling about the standard of proof in a criminal trial, the vast majority of those incarcerated never actually went through one.

[1] https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3498 [2] https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-cr... [3] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#166

Post by hnracer » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #144

sebmellen wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.

While that's true, there's no comparison between (a) and (b) in terms of how bad the original offense is. One is murder and the other is a thought crime.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#167

Post by thelean12 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #138

thelean12 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.

They're not distracting, because those underlying questions shape your reaction. Murder is considered one of the worst offenses in any society. But this person was already punished by society, and seen fit by the law to return to it. So what could explain your continue (and very understandable) discomfort? Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? Is…

> Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society?

I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time.

> Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it?

If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again?

> Finally, does it mean that such a person is forever marked as fundamentally dangerous and unworthy of reintegration?

Correct. And maybe I'm caught up on the murder aspect. Murder isn't a small little crime. It takes a certain type of person to be able to intentionally murder someone. And maybe most of this thread can be summarized by: I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#168

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #52

nicoburns wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Algorithmic tests aren't great for any level. You want to ask someone to solve practical technical tasks that are relevant to the job they are applying for. For an entry level job this may be a programming task (build this one screen). For a more senior position you'd want to ask about things like architecture and practical trade-offs. You could use a whiteboard for this: I don't think it's whiteboards people object…

Very true. I didn't use the right term there for what an entry level dev does. But I still think that, even if a senior tech can do a decent job elucidating a architecture, that's not proof they can lead, which is similarly important, and the only way to prove that you have the ability is to look at past accomplishments.

> the only way to prove that you have the ability is to look at past accomplishments

I'd argue that past accomplishments don't prove anything either. Or rather, it's impossible to tell whether they were actually responsible for those accomplishments. It's not just architecture you want to ask about. It's the practicalities of choosing libraries, making engineering trade-offs, running a team (if that's part of the job they're applying for). The trick is to ask them questions that they'd only know the answer to if they've actually been there and done that ("What want wrong" and "what problems did you face" are good ones). And to follow up with asking them why they'd make that choice.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#169

Post by ciberado » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #110

koiz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.

Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, bu…

I worked in the finantial industry 20 years ago in Andorra, a small independent country between France and Spain. You needed to present what in Spanish is called a "certificado de penales" (criminal certificate, I think is the expression in English).

Ironically, the country itself was at that time well-known for its opaque finantial practices.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#170

Post by nexuist » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

sevenf0ur wrote: post #142

tnorthcutt wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Do you feel that after serving a sentence for such a crime, the perpetrator should not have a chance at a "normal" life? Should they live the rest of their days continually punished by society for what they did? If so, should we instead increase the length of the sentence for such a crime? To how long?

We had someone who worked at my company that was convicted for second degree manslaughter for bludgeoning someone to death with a hammer. He was always chill around me but I think companies should have the right to decide whether or not they want to hire people with a record like that.

How do you get manslaughter for that? You can't unintentionally bludgeon someone to death, can you?

I will however say that there is opportunity for multiple interpretations with the little information provided; for example I think bludgeoning someone to death is perfectly acceptable if that person is trying to harm you or your family and a hammer is the nearest available weapon. Your coworker could have been in a similar situation in which self defense was warranted, and that may be why he did not get a murder charge instead.

This sort of nuance is why this issue matters a lot; you could do the right thing and still end up with a charge that severely impacts your ability to get a job, even though you're not actually some kind of violent murderer.