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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#441

Post by jahaja »

fastball wrote: post #439
jahaja wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? You said: > It's more economically efficient [..] to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves This isn't about what's economically efficient, it's about what certain societies think is well spent money.

My point is literally the first sentence of my comment. > It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology.

There's nothing biological in denying fathers parental leave even if the mother takes the first months of it.

And it is sexism to ignore the effects to womens careers if this is not shared.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#442

Post by Barrin92 »

toxik wrote: post #98
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, fathers' increasing involvement in childcare led to higher labor force attachment among mothers. This may have raised the opportunity cost of an additional child. We also find that men reported lower desired fertility after the reform, possibly due to their increased awareness of the costs of childrearing, or to a shift in preferences from child quantity to quality. These honestly sound like good things to m…

Having children is more important to society than having workers. It is a grim fact that the calculus of life in almost any Western country is that you can have maybe one child, but better none, if you want to have a decent life. We are literally a dying breed, and on our way to extinction, we’re wholly unable to even have a conversation about the problem.

I think what's important to society is for individuals to have free and self-determined lives, we're not rabbits on a farm.

People in Western countries don't do any calculus because they can't afford children, they have fewer children because that's what people want if they're not under pressure. In fact economically speaking, the opposite is true, the birth rate is high precisely in places in which people are poor, because children are the social safety net as well as the work force for manual labour.

Also if we reproduce at say, a modest rate of 1.7 there will be still more people in 2200 than there were in the 1950s. How are we heading for extinction exactly?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#443

Post by sveme »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #433
sveme wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter if people are so much happier and feel so much more secure in nordic countries compared to the US?

Correlation is not causation. Happiness might be affected by a lot of things other than the respective social systems. By the way, asking out of legitimate interest, do you have any statistics on that?

There you go: https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptional...

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#444

Post by teraku »

luckylion wrote: post #221
woodpanel wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I imagine the women earning a bit less, I imagine them getting 65% of less. Whoever of the parents is earning less, in most cases it would make more sense for the less compensated parent to just switch into part-time, if he/she isn't already working a tax-free "mini-job", while the higher compensated parent takes the leave. This yields the highest income per hours@home.

> This yields the highest income per hours@home. But that's usually not what people optimize for, they optimize for max total income, because rent or mortgage payments etc aren't based on a percentage of income but fixed amounts. Sure, it's great if you only work one hour a month and get 1000€ for that instead of working 100 hours and getting 4000€. But if your rent is 1100€, what good does that do?

Your results are the same, your optimisation goals seem to differ.

Does it matter?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#445

Post by teraku »

amai wrote: post #434
woodpanel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can echo that. Still only 2% of men take the leave, while 42% of women do [1]. I can only speculate as to why. 1) Our cultural wiring runs deeper than just "sex is a social construct" 2) The German system is still quite complicated. As countless online calculators and private consultancies helping you filling out the forms prove. As well as the above statistic itself, since financially it would make more sense if t…

It's simple: In the German system, it makes sense for the person earning less to stay at home, because that means the loss of income in the partnership will be minimized. Since men are still earning more in many relationships in Germany mostly women take the parental leave. This issue could be fixed easily, by adding up the income of both partners and then paying 65% of the sum. But instead in Germany you get 65% up…

Well the rules have been there forever and I feel like back in the day the CDU/sPD was quite good at math ;-)

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#446

Post by pizza234 »

pizza234 wrote: post #144
woodpanel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can echo that. Still only 2% of men take the leave, while 42% of women do [1]. I can only speculate as to why. 1) Our cultural wiring runs deeper than just "sex is a social construct" 2) The German system is still quite complicated. As countless online calculators and private consultancies helping you filling out the forms prove. As well as the above statistic itself, since financially it would make more sense if t…

> Still only 2% of men take the leave, while 42% of women do [1]. > I can only speculate as to why. This is actually pretty simple: Germany's culture is still deeply rooted into old gender roles - father provider and mother educator. To give a context of the culture and legal system, as of today, unmarried fathers don't get legal custody automatically, and if they apply and the mother refuses, they need to go to cour…

Can the downvoter(s) clarify their position? I'm familiar with the subject, and this is informed opinion, not prejudice. If somebody disagrees, it's interesting to see their opinion and information.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#447

Post by chromanoid »

mikestew wrote: post #396
chromanoid wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I wish that victim-blaming quote would once and for all fade into it's rightful place of crap writing. It's as if that Canadian never spoke with an actual impoverished American.

Ah, thanks for the heads-up. I tried to understand what you mean and found this: https://jacobinmag.com/2018/05/americans-class-politics-pist... Seems somewhat reasonable to me.

But at the same time this statement:

> When people can’t easily identify who will be the ultimate beneficiary of a particular state program or policy — that is, whether the rich or the poor will come out on top — then support for that program plummets.

makes me wonder how this should change in times of industrial grade trolling and disinformation campaigns. And if the compass is so fragile, why is that?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#448

Post by dx034 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #269
dx034 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just tech workers, pretty much any academic will hit that limit. And if you live in an expensive area, 1800 Euro can be a severe cap. With mortgages to pay, it can be unrealistic for the father to take more than the minimum of two months off.

> With mortgages to pay, it can be unrealistic for the father to take more than the minimum of two months off. Fellow German here, I don't know of anyone in my friend circle rich enough to be able to put together the downpayment for a home...

House sales have hit an all-time high last year. The share of foreign buyers has increased over the past decade but is still insignificant. So someone is definitely buying houses and tech workers tend to be paid quite well in comparison to others.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#449

Post by dx034 »

parasight wrote: post #368
dx034 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has a much more restrictive system though. 65% and a cap that pretty much anyone with a college degree will hit. So in reality you look at 30-50% for most people. Still nice, especially given the job guarantee, but very restrictive in who can take it if you have bills to pay.

In my experience the Elterngeld usually replaces one income in a double income family. Of course one will "loose" money if the cap hits, but hey its 1800 EUR per month for up to 14 months just for being a parent. I think it is awesome even if it is just 30% of your regular salary.

The problem just is that it's often infeasible to replace the higher income. And since women in their early 30s are (unfortunately) often paid worse on average than men (due to many factors), women stay out longer and lose out even more.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#450

Post by fastball »

jahaja wrote: post #441
fastball wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is literally the first sentence of my comment. > It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology.

There's nothing biological in denying fathers parental leave even if the mother takes the first months of it. And it is sexism to ignore the effects to womens careers if this is not shared.

Nobody is denying anything.

Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right.

Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.

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