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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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81–90 of 148 posts

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#81
post #8

On that subject, from 24 years ago: > I need from you a few paragraphs describing your personal interests, > advising style or philosophy, background and professional interests. > ... I'm preparing a document to give the freshman for them to use to > select an advisor. I need to receive your info by early next week. I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, majored in mathematics and Computer Science at Yale Univers…

is there any more context to this? All I could find is this: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/~shivers/advisor-stmt-original.txt

Just to be completely clear, this was satire. The professor who wrote it is very well-regarded by his students.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorces, too. A family member was applying to med schools, and during one of the visits there was a boast of a >100% divorce rate among students. Every married student who entered that program was divorced by the end, as were some who got married during the program. To have such a stressful program is bad enough, but to boast about it as a sign of prestige and dedication is even worse.

> to boast about it What the actual fuck? Why would anyone who loves their wife or husband choose to enter such a program? (Best-case scenario: a few years of data produced this anomalous result, someone noticed it and decided to draw attention to it, and it has since scared away all married students, so that there will never be any future data points to contradict it.) Still, from what I know about medical school an…

Still, from what I know about medical school and residency in general, any place that periodically assigns 24-hour work shifts just because is ... perverse.

It's worse than you think: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-n...

Once a person has taken on the debt from med school, it's extremely difficult not to continue. Residency programs know this.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#83

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

Two friends of mine who went to grad school said there is one and only one metric to select a graduate advisor.

How many of his students complete their PhD and how long that takes. That's it. There is no other metric. None. You might think 'but...' No! Don't do that.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

How would you check that? I remember there was a (rumored) suicide at my school while I was there, and it was hushed up really well so that even a lot of students wouldn't have heard about it. Far as I know, there isn't a searchable database of 'suicides per school'.

I suppose I can't say for sure but I remember plenty of them in the school newspaper, at least a few a year usually. Sometimes the reason was easy to deduce, sometimes it was ambiguous as is often the case in possible suicides.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OS also has this: https://scsh.net/docu/html/man.html (I understand it to be intended as humorous, BTW.)

Maybe we are a bit more "puritanical" but I think yes today even joking about pulling a gun would be seen as a "bad idea."

Back then, it was a "no one would do that" thing. Now it's more of a "would he really?" thing.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorces, too. A family member was applying to med schools, and during one of the visits there was a boast of a >100% divorce rate among students. Every married student who entered that program was divorced by the end, as were some who got married during the program. To have such a stressful program is bad enough, but to boast about it as a sign of prestige and dedication is even worse.

> to boast about it What the actual fuck? Why would anyone who loves their wife or husband choose to enter such a program? (Best-case scenario: a few years of data produced this anomalous result, someone noticed it and decided to draw attention to it, and it has since scared away all married students, so that there will never be any future data points to contradict it.) Still, from what I know about medical school an…

That was more or less my reaction as well. I could understand there being a few years of anomalous data as a result of small sample size, but to then boast of it rather than taking it as a sign of very serious issues doubles down on a bad sign.

I agree that the 24-hour shifts are ridiculous. I could see some potential benefit for reducing the number of shift handoffs (e.g. 12-hour shifts expose patients to 2 shift changes per day, but 8-hour shifts expose patients to 3 shift changes per day), since shift handoffs have been shown to be the source of miscommunications. However, as your link points out, there is no decrease in standard of care resulting from removing 24-hour shifts, so that is not a reason to keep 24-hour shifts.

Also, thank you for the link on it, though the tone of that article was definitely odd. It took the lack of effect of shift duration on patient care as a reason to extend shifts back up to 24 hours, rather than concluding that there is no reason to keep shifts at 24 hours. Similarly, it takes as a given that after a 16-hour shift, you only get 8 hours off, rather than treating that as another sign of poor shift scheduling. (From the article, “When you’re on a 16-hour shift that ends Monday at 11 p.m., you still have to come back to the hospital on Tuesday at 7 a.m.,” she noted. “When you’re on a 24-hour shift, you leave on Tuesday at 7 a.m., and you don’t have to report back for duty until Wednesday. That is a better arrangement. You have the rest of the day to do things.”)

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#87
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any more context to this? All I could find is this: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/~shivers/advisor-stmt-original.txt

Just to be completely clear, this was satire. The professor who wrote it is very well-regarded by his students.

Olin Shivers (https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/) is special.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#88

> Too often I have been told to be proud of the great work I am a part of, as if this should outweigh the negative and harmful things myself and others have experienced. Actually, that's how it works in the real world from my experience. Most geniuses have terrible shadows that are as dark and long as they are brilliant and tall. Most of us feel really lucky to get things done and be a part of something, and when we…

"Most geniuses have terrible shadows that are as dark and long as they are brilliant and tall."

This may be true. But it's not right.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#89

This is very very common. As long as professors publish, they can get away with a lot of things, bonus points of the students are indentured to their H1B. I've seen Ph.D students in their 30s, mother of children, cry in front of me because of the abusive and neglectful actions of their advisors. They essentially run their lab as a personal fiefdom, and HR is powerless in this situation. Sexual harrassment cases are m…

I've been on a number of conference calls where people (both male and female) break down in tears from pressure or bad coworkers. Tears aren't all that rare or a big deal.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#90
post #89

This is very very common. As long as professors publish, they can get away with a lot of things, bonus points of the students are indentured to their H1B. I've seen Ph.D students in their 30s, mother of children, cry in front of me because of the abusive and neglectful actions of their advisors. They essentially run their lab as a personal fiefdom, and HR is powerless in this situation. Sexual harrassment cases are m…

I've been on a number of conference calls where people (both male and female) break down in tears from pressure or bad coworkers. Tears aren't all that rare or a big deal.

WTF yes they are. Only an utterly dysfunctional corporate culture would tolerate putting people under that amount of stress.

Ignoring "be a decent human being" for a moment, and only looking at the money (because this is one way to communicate with dysfunctional corps): companies have a duty of care to protect their staff from harm, and this includes mental distress. By not addressing the abuse the company is leaving itself open to costly legal action.

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