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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#41

Post by MaxBarraclough »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

> you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article

What do you make of the Me Too movement?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#42

Post by shuntress »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #29

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton The underlying issue is the huge power differential between advisers and students. Whenever there is such a power differential, abuse is almost inevitable. I fear that unless that power differential gets addressed, any solutions are going to just be superficial band-aids on a festering wound.

I disagree. The power differential is not the underlying issue.

Power is certainly a part of it but the underlying issue comes down to oversight + accountability. Both in specific written rules and in general societal norms that influence how those rules are used.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#43

Post by ColanR »

wiredfool wrote: post #23
croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

How would you check that? I remember there was a (rumored) suicide at my school while I was there, and it was hushed up really well so that even a lot of students wouldn't have heard about it.

Far as I know, there isn't a searchable database of 'suicides per school'.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#44

Post by vkou »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #29

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton The underlying issue is the huge power differential between advisers and students. Whenever there is such a power differential, abuse is almost inevitable. I fear that unless that power differential gets addressed, any solutions are going to just be superficial band-aids on a festering wound.

Power corrupts, but more importantly, power reveals.

You can only get a real measure of a man, or woman, when they have power over you.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#45

Post by etrautmann »

yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

This is really odd to me. In most contexts I’ve experienced, the professor’s research and the student’s are more or less one and the same. Yes, you might have an extra project, but how could someone get stuck for an extra five years?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#46

Post by LanceH »

hinkley wrote: post #31
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #29

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton The underlying issue is the huge power differential between advisers and students. Whenever there is such a power differential, abuse is almost inevitable. I fear that unless that power differential gets addressed, any solutions are going to just be superficial band-aids on a festering wound.

"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it’s more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power." - David Brin

Being corrupt without power goes unnoticed.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#47

Post by adamsea »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

> Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article.

I feel like you must have worked hard to not give credence to things you've heard from folks about their jobs, Phds, etc.a

Or perhaps not known many people who've been in a toxic work situation.

But grad school has been talked about as a toxic nightmare for like a decade now ...

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#49

Post by canjobear »

sthnblllII wrote: post #19

I think the problem here is credentialism. People have been incentivized too strongly to need a degree from the most prestigious institution and so put up with things they wouldn't have before. Great work is being done all over the world now, there is no reason people should still see one of a few schools as a requirement for a serious resume.

Abusive advisors exist at universities of all prestige levels.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#50

Post by marvin »

wiredfool wrote: post #38
neolog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there labs with more than one recent suicide?

I’m a little hazy on it now, but my sister's lab had at least one while she was there, and it directly led to her death a few years later. It was ... not a healthy environment. Some warning signs would have been easier to see from the same coast, and some of them were obvious in hindsight.

So sorry to hear that.
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