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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#61

Post by barry-cotter »

yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

Academia is probably unavoidably abusive because it’s all personal relationships[1] but PhDs are definitely abusogenic compared to professional doctorates like JDs or MDs. You absolutely need your supervisor[2].

[1] Academic science is one of the most feudal environments I have ever personally experienced, and human genetics perhaps even more so. A few large groups of collaborators with connected pedigrees share post-docs and promote each other’s work, and fund young researchers coming up through their network. Any researcher who crosses one of the lords of human genetics could be excluded from a whole patronage set, and sources of funding, as these networks populate the grant-review boards.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/01/17/d-5/

[2] It also illustrated a truth in academia from what little I’ve seen and experienced within it: it is a highly feudal culture defined by patronage networks and an ordered understanding of the relationship of superiors to subordinates. As they say: “You come at the king, you best not miss.”

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#62

Post by srtjstjsj »

MereInterest wrote: post #60
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Divorces, too. A family member was applying to med schools, and during one of the visits there was a boast of a >100% divorce rate among students. Every married student who entered that program was divorced by the end, as were some who got married during the program. To have such a stressful program is bad enough, but to boast about it as a sign of prestige and dedication is even worse.

That's scary because being married is positively correlated with success in professional school.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#63

Post by srtjstjsj »

ColanR wrote: post #43
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

How would you check that? I remember there was a (rumored) suicide at my school while I was there, and it was hushed up really well so that even a lot of students wouldn't have heard about it. Far as I know, there isn't a searchable database of 'suicides per school'.

Web search for obits. If someone dies young and the reason isn't clearly stated, it's suicide.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#64

Post by gumby »

ColanR wrote: post #43
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

How would you check that? I remember there was a (rumored) suicide at my school while I was there, and it was hushed up really well so that even a lot of students wouldn't have heard about it. Far as I know, there isn't a searchable database of 'suicides per school'.

MIT does not cover the, up, to my knowledge. Quite the opposite.

The only one I knew personally died for reasons unrelated to the Instititute— in fact it was one of his bright spots in some ways (though he suffered dreadfully from the imposter syndrome as well so in other ways it made things worse).

However MIT can be a very difficult place and I don’t want to gloss over that. And I think the institute could do a lot to improve things.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#65

Post by sevensor »

canjobear wrote: post #49
sthnblllII wrote: post #19

I think the problem here is credentialism. People have been incentivized too strongly to need a degree from the most prestigious institution and so put up with things they wouldn't have before. Great work is being done all over the world now, there is no reason people should still see one of a few schools as a requirement for a serious resume.

Abusive advisors exist at universities of all prestige levels.

I'll say. I've got stories from my time at Big State U that would make your blood run cold.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#66

Post by mxwsn »

As a current MIT PhD student, this ideas are incredibly important to hear. Establishing an appropriate widespread sense of what normal is crucial for changing culture.

More people need to talk about changing labs as well. A surprising fraction of PhD students do this and is fairly normal as well. I switched labs in the middle of my PhD and had the unusual and lucky opportunity to be able to take my work with me.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#67

Post by m463 »

croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

I think this is how Steve Jobs worked out who was good.

He would go to people and say "I heard so-and-so sucks" and if he didn't suck people would adamantly stand up for so-and-so, but if he DID suck, there would be a lackluster response.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#68

Post by srtjstjsj »

barry-cotter wrote: post #61
yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

Academia is probably unavoidably abusive because it’s all personal relationships[1] but PhDs are definitely abusogenic compared to professional doctorates like JDs or MDs. You absolutely need your supervisor[2]. [1] Academic science is one of the most feudal environments I have ever personally experienced, and human genetics perhaps even more so. A few large groups of collaborators with connected pedigrees share post…

This is one of the downsides of a centrally planned economy where all the funds are allocated by an authority who doesn't profit from investment returns.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#69

Post by Upvoter33 »

croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

This is great advice. Talk to as many people as possible, including those who didn't make it through to PhD. If you talk to those who made it, you are getting a very biased sample. Ask to talk to some students who left with a masters or otherwise.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#70

Post by srtjstjsj »

etrautmann wrote: post #45
yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

This is really odd to me. In most contexts I’ve experienced, the professor’s research and the student’s are more or less one and the same. Yes, you might have an extra project, but how could someone get stuck for an extra five years?

Parent was comparing undergrad classroom behavior to the (reported) research lab behavior.
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