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Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

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Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#111

Post by cwp »

hugh3 wrote: post #64
maqr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me up to here: > You don't really know if it's worth what you spent, because the seller is purposely keeping you in the dark about the value, continuing to assure you that this type of purchase at these rates is absolutely necessary. This isn't like buying a car or a house. My degree has no monetary value, as far as I can tell. I'd love to sell it to the highest bidder, but it's non-transferable. I essentiall…

In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…

You forgot the fourth kind: people who didn't go to university and are glad. If they're writing articles, it's not sour grapes. They're saying, "told you so."

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#112

Post by cwp »

shadowfox wrote: post #83
maqr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but I think there's more to the "regret" group. Consider this: I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market. I can do that by trying to raise the status of my school (see: alumni donations) or by putting down those without degrees (see: degree requirements for jobs). In practice, I'm so disgusted by the entire system that I…

> I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market Conversely it is in the interest of people who do not have a degree to deflate the importance of the degree in the job market?

Of course. I do it every chance I get.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#113

Post by random42 »

entangld wrote: post #94
random42 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. Yes, Steve Jobs is a real-world success. He obviously did not feel the need to finish the college, and took a deliberate decision to do so. His opinion on education certainly would have a different angle and substance that would be worth hearing. But that is because of the reasons stated earlier he is qualified to opine on the subject…

What makes him qualified to opine on education? The fact that he's a real world success? What's with all of the deference to authority on HN? I may defer to experts on radiation in Fukushima, but education is a philosophical argument. Even the experts aren't really experts on it. Can we describe the difference between good and bad teachers yet? Not really. Degrees do not protect anyone or any institution from critici…

No, no. Trust me, I am with you. I will not listen to Tiger Woods on Education. and I too, am pro-learning (by traditional means).

I do not imply to say, "Everyone should drop out of schools, because steve jobs did, and see.. he is successful". My thoughts were more along the lines of, "Even though we have our belief's, lets hear this guy out, because he is successful and _smart_ and _took a decision_ on the subject matter, and we might learn something interesting from his observations on the subject matter."

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#114

Post by thaumaturgy »

waterhouse wrote: post #109
hugh3 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…

There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. I'll just note here that this statement appears to be true of every conceivable activity. Every person either did do it--in which case they're either glad or they regret it (or they'…

I've never attended more than a couple of classes of college -- and I can't even remember which ones I've finished, if any, and which ones I didn't -- and I'm quite ashamed of that. And publicly so, too.

If I succeed, I will tell people that I did so in spite of not going to college, not because I didn't go.

It's not wrong for me to say that college wasn't for me. I'm only slightly less of an arrogant, self-important know-it-all outspoken jackass than I used to be; but I can, and do, express regret that I never got those qualities under control enough to go to college and come back out with a degree.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#115

Post by arghnoname »

Tycho wrote: post #30
cparedes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

Maybe it's different where you live, but doing an Honours degree means specializing in the subject. For instance with English lit, you would typically choose 7 or 8 modules (spread over two years), each representing a different period of literature. For those classes you should read one or two books per week (but you have all summer to prepare), and write 3 essays for each module. You should also seek out criticism o…

> Really no better than the average person who reads a lot of books.

That might be true, but of course the "average person who reads a lot of books" is not even remotely average. Most people don't read a lot of books, so if college were to make an average person nearly as knowledgeable as self-motivated individuals interesting in spending their personal free-time reading books, as opposed to watching American Idol, it is pretty successful.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#116

Post by seriesoftubes »

shii wrote: post #25

These kinds of posts always pop up in a row, like a volley of arrows. Bemoaning education as failing students, falling in value, rising in cost, etc etc etc. What actual concrete alternatives are there for alarmed students (such as myself) that read these types of posts, jump through all the hoops, and still face a massive bill from Podunk U to get a BS or BA? Most of you all here have already gone through the rites…

You asked a great question. I wish I had a better answer for you, but that's one big and obvious limitation of the internet- I can only give general advice to you because I hardly know anything about you.

My three short bits of general advice to anyone in your stage of life are:

1) Relax and enjoy life

2) Try to differentiate yourself in a positive light as much as possible (both on and off paper).

3) Keep on seeking the answers like you are doing right now. You can never get what you don't ask for. Don't limit yourself by not asking for things.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#117

Post by bad_user »

shadowfox wrote: post #83
maqr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but I think there's more to the "regret" group. Consider this: I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market. I can do that by trying to raise the status of my school (see: alumni donations) or by putting down those without degrees (see: degree requirements for jobs). In practice, I'm so disgusted by the entire system that I…

> I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market Conversely it is in the interest of people who do not have a degree to deflate the importance of the degree in the job market?

Not for entrepreneurs.

I don't have a college degree, and I'm glad I don't as that would have been waisted time -- but I had to interview people, and the quality of people coming from a certain university in my city is much higher than the rest of the bunch.

I even go as far as thinking that there might be something wrong with people not having a degree, so I definitely bring the point up in interviews.

But a degree can also work against you. If the quality of a university is known to be poor, the candidate would be better off not mentioning it in resumes. So it's definitely about branding.

People complain about the unfairness of the latest trends in regards to contributions to open-source, which look really good on people's resumes. But a portfolio of works released to the public works much better for software developers that a shitty university. On the other hand, whenever I hear MIT or Berkley, my eyes lighten up.

So having (or not) a degree depends on lots of factors.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#118

Post by nice1 »

cj wrote: post #15
hugh3 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure…

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

Furthermore, as the article itself notes, grade inflation and acceptance of cheating make the value of even the science degrees somewhat dubious. The general atmosphere of political correctness (often motivated by extreme leftist ideology) make this problem very acute.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#119

Post by [deleted] »

danenania wrote: post #95
mkramlich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education usually blasts away many natural preconceived notions about the world. In some cases, agreed. However, in other cases, it seems to do just the opposite: it seems to introduce new or enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies. From my perspective, it appears to happen most often with the so-called "soft" sciences, and most especially in things like literature and gender/race and non-mainstream sexual stu…

Math and hard sciences also introduce and enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies and exhibit cult-like qualities--for example, a belief that other disciplines are less intellectually important or serious. Don't get me wrong, math and the hard sciences certainly provide extremely important and foundational knowledge, but the prevalence of egotism and nerd machismo in these fields is as obnoxious to me as the fla…

[deleted]

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#120

Post by yid »

bad_user wrote: post #117
shadowfox wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market Conversely it is in the interest of people who do not have a degree to deflate the importance of the degree in the job market?

Not for entrepreneurs. I don't have a college degree, and I'm glad I don't as that would have been waisted time -- but I had to interview people, and the quality of people coming from a certain university in my city is much higher than the rest of the bunch. I even go as far as thinking that there might be something wrong with people not having a degree, so I definitely bring the point up in interviews. But a degree…

> I don't have a college degree, and I'm glad I don't as that would have been waisted time

Ouch, talk about a bad time to make a typo ("waisted")

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