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Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

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Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#71

Post by nickpinkston »

vannevar wrote: post #50

Can we please stop abusing the term "bubble" in the context of higher education? Not every economic adjustment is the result of a bubble. When Blockbuster filed for bankruptcy, it wasn't because there was a bubble in the DVD market. If higher education is overpriced, people will stop buying. When they do, none of the people who did buy in will be any worse off than they were before . It's a completely different situa…

It's more correct to say that this is an economic bubble (look at academic cost inflation), within a larger societal change (the form of education is going to be massively disrupted).

It's not like the classic investment bubble since the investment in completely illiquid outside of purchase - making it a one way market. Also, education's affect on the majority of the people wasn't as beneficial as they were led to believe - therefore the "collapse" of this bubble won't kill those who've invested. Instead, it's going to hurt those who are directly/indirect selling assets into this one-way market: school, publishers, etc. when the population decreases demand.

In the mortgage crisis there was a sell-off bubble, but here this isn't relevant since there was never the possibility of liquidity except by extra "rents" generated by getting better jobs.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#72

Post by cparedes »

maxharris wrote: post #67
cparedes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing? I went to a good school, and I was forced to take all of the worthless general requirements that had nothing to do with anything I cared about. The only thing I still have from those classes is debt. Most people I know tell me that they've had the same experience I did.

I ask myself that a lot, too.

I usually refer to David Foster Wallace's graduation speech (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178211966454607.html) given to the class of 2005 at Kenyon College.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#73

Post by compuguy »

cparedes wrote: post #23
Tycho wrote: post #13

I was thinking about this today. I remember I used to think 'well, if you do a degree, at least you'll be an expert in something , even if you can't find a good job with it.' When I think of it now, the notion is almost laughable. University students don't become experts in anything. For a non-technical subject, the knowledge gained isn't really going to beat a normal member of the public with an interest in the subj…

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

Whats funny is at my university, they are making degrees more specialized. An example of this is Applied Computer Science having several areas (Geography, Game programming, etc). In my program of IT there are four concentrations (network security, database programming, web design, and networking). Based on this, a bachelors is not as well rounded as it used to be.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#74

Post by compuguy »

WalterBright wrote: post #24
Tycho wrote: post #13

I was thinking about this today. I remember I used to think 'well, if you do a degree, at least you'll be an expert in something , even if you can't find a good job with it.' When I think of it now, the notion is almost laughable. University students don't become experts in anything. For a non-technical subject, the knowledge gained isn't really going to beat a normal member of the public with an interest in the subj…

I've seen very, very few people able to learn calculus outside of a school system. Most will just go to elaborate lengths to avoid using calculus and justify why they don't need to learn it.

The big issue in math in high school and higher universities, is the excessive use of rote memory. You do not need to memorize, word for word, multiple proofs, in order to understand and apply knowledge you learn in a mathematics class. The same goes to mathematical formulas.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#75

Post by cparedes »

compuguy wrote: post #73
cparedes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

Whats funny is at my university, they are making degrees more specialized. An example of this is Applied Computer Science having several areas (Geography, Game programming, etc). In my program of IT there are four concentrations (network security, database programming, web design, and networking). Based on this, a bachelors is not as well rounded as it used to be.

I don't see anything wrong with specialization at all - it's just that college usually appeals to this notion of "well-roundedness", and even if it doesn't, I'd say that it might be great to try taking that weird underwater basket weaving class for shits and giggles, or an English lit class (outside of your requirements, IMO - you'll get a better experience in the classroom when you don't have a ton of people in the class trying to fill basic requirements), or whatever else.

I've personally taken a couple of film and English classes when I didn't need the credits - it doesn't help me one bit in my career, but at least it had helped me think of things in a different way than what I'm used to.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#76

Post by GaryOlson »

Start by killing all the lawyers. Grade quality, cheating, and instructional quality have all been degraded by litigious students and parents. Caught cheating? Bad grade? Don’t like the faculty? Can’t collaborate with your project group? Universities are under constant assault by undisciplined, immature, lazy students who attack the University system in order to obtain a degree. In the end, the colleges find it easier to pass the cost of failures onto society than fight. I can’t say I blame them.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#77

Post by localhost3000 »

cj wrote: post #15
hugh3 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure…

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

And those graduates are the ones who didn't get their money's worth, can't find decent work, and are largely pissed off at their plight. Now, whose fault is that? I say it's the kid just as much (or more) as it is the institution. There are plenty of people who put it the effort and are entirely satisfied with their education.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#78

Post by Goladus »

entangld wrote: post #49
hugh3 wrote: post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

Are you attempting to attack her credibility or can you address her point? Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. This is an argument that can be logically debated without having to go to credentials. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -- Leonardo da Vinci

The only points she makes are based on unfounded assumptions. She has no argument to attack. There is nothing to debate logically.

She would be making the appeal to authority, except she doesn't even bother to do that. She just appeals to common sense ("you don't have to be an economist to... etc").

Edit: perhaps I should say any of her good points are overshadowed by (and mostly unrelated to) the blatant exaggerations and generalisations.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#79

Post by maqr »

hugh3 wrote: post #64
maqr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me up to here: > You don't really know if it's worth what you spent, because the seller is purposely keeping you in the dark about the value, continuing to assure you that this type of purchase at these rates is absolutely necessary. This isn't like buying a car or a house. My degree has no monetary value, as far as I can tell. I'd love to sell it to the highest bidder, but it's non-transferable. I essentiall…

In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…

That may be true, but I think there's more to the "regret" group.

Consider this: I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market. I can do that by trying to raise the status of my school (see: alumni donations) or by putting down those without degrees (see: degree requirements for jobs). In practice, I'm so disgusted by the entire system that I don't have any desire for my degree to have importance.

This strange thing that's happening is that people with degrees aren't defending them nearly as vigorously. I think the reality is finally setting in that having a degree is not a good discriminating factor for employment. This is awkward to the large group of people who only sought a degree for better career opportunities. Like angry rioters, one possible (though perhaps illogical) course of action for the degreed-but-unemployed might be to tear down the facade of the degree.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#80

Post by xiaoma »

hugh3 wrote: post #55
entangld wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you attempting to attack her credibility or can you address her point? Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. This is an argument that can be logically debated without having to go to credentials. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -- Leonardo da Vinci

Well shit, all I can say on the subject is exactly what an originality-challenged dean would say to his class of incoming freshmen (if deans actually addressed classes of incoming freshmen): what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Want to take advantage of being able to spend four years learning from some of the best minds in every field of human endeavour? Four years set free on hundreds of possible…

It's telling that many of the folks who are pushing the "we don't need no education" meme are programmers by trade, since programming is one of the very few skills that you can learn effectively on your own by reading books.

I would say that programming is one of the few high-paying professions that many can break into without certification. There are a lot of skills that can be learned via self-study if one is willing to go beyond books, but the problem is one of certification.

Living in Beijing, I regularly meet people studying Chinese on their own as well as those with 4 year degrees in Chinese, often from prestigious schools. Most of the best speakers I've known have been hobbyists who are interested, rather than people who simply followed an academic track at an institution. However, with no certification, it's a bit tough for some fully bilingual self-taught people to get the nice translation jobs. I won't name any names, but I've seen some high profile work done very poorly by a PHD who had credentials to get it.

Other than foreign languages, writing in one's own tongue is also not largely linked to an expensive 4 year university. Neither are business, popular music or theater. I would also say that math is largely vulnerable to self-study. I've made considerable progress in the visual arts just from my own efforts and youtube.

Other than extremely expensive research sciences what else requires a university to learn effectively?

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