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Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

reuters.com

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Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#611

Post by vin047 »

thesz wrote: post #427
CraigJPerry wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scrol…

Actually, it is not. I am not R or D, I am Russian programmer who lives in Russia and likes to read. One of things I've read already long ago is about priming: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ Showing one different pictures change walking speed, at the very least. And effects can last as long as year: http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24... TikTok, being a massive analytic…

> Facebook is primarily text which is low bandwidth and it goes through higher thinking. TikTok is high bandwidth from the start and is primarily analyzed using much older parts of brain.

Agreed. Reading and writing are recent inventions and involve thought and deliberation. There's a reason why such skills were rare and highly valued in antiquity. It's reasonable to assume that a medium with an emphasis on text is less prone to (but not entirely exempt from) manipulation.

On a somewhat unrelated note, people like Elon Musk believe that "information overload" can be solved by increasing the bandwidth between the medium and the brain. I wonder if that's true, or whether the lower bandwidth is necessary because our newer brain (prefrontal cortex) simply isn't fast enough.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#612

Post by ardy42 »

deevolution wrote: post #604
ardy42 wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Twitter is a popular information-sharing social platform, and there are Chinese actors on it, but this argument isn't extended to suggest that it be banned, either. But somehow, a platform that does both must not be allowed to exist? I don't get it. Is it that hard to understand? Twitter and Facebook will at least try to make a genuine effort to root out and ban "coordinated inauthentic activity" by the Chinese gov…

Banning/setting up a firewall makes us no different than the CCP! Personally I think all the effort and resources spent policing social media platforms is a complete waste and malinvestment. This looks like an overreach of government power.

> Banning/setting up a firewall makes us no different than the CCP! [1]

That's pretty clearly not the case. Context matters. For instance: if I shot someone in self defense, and you shot someone to murder them, we're not "no different" because we both performed the action of shooting a gun at someone. In that case, like this one, the context motivating the action is more important than the action itself in determining its meaning.

> Personally I think all the effort and resources spent policing social media platforms is a complete waste and malinvestment. This looks like an overreach of government power.

Some people say the same thing about having any military at all.

[1] Italicizing something like that is a common quote style, but I'm assuming you're italicizing your own statement for emphasis because that isn't anything like what I said.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#613

Post by sigotirandolas »

Robotbeat wrote: post #511
sigotirandolas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. It's very frustrating when you're skeptical of a news item and it's essentially impossible to find the original source as it is not linked and apparently impossible to find with the information given. It doesn't stop the item from trending on social media if it sounds good though.

Worse is when you agree with the reporting but don’t follow up to check as there’s no link. The problem with not having a link isn't when you're already skeptical but when you aren't.

That's an interesting observation... it's true I don't check the news I find plausible as much as the news I am already sceptical about, while I mostly become sceptical about the news items not because of the reporting/writing itself, but because of the alleged facts not matching my expectations / biases.

It's a messy problem, as checking news items takes a lot of effort and it's just impossible to deal with the news volume nowadays. Ideally I'd love to see some cooperative effort to check news items by many people with different ideologies/biases, but I think there's currently not enough manpower for that and it's also very easy to end with a biased set of checkers.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#614

Post by mistermann »

marcosdumay wrote: post #608
mistermann wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approaching this from an unemotional, abstract, systems analysis perspective seems like a good way to go about this. If we were debating something like "where shall we go for lunch, Restaurant A or B", most people here likely wouldn't have trouble identifying (or wouldn't deny the existence of) attributes that one might take into consideration (price, location, quality, cleanliness, decor, types and variety of dishes…

My guess is there are two different factors at play. - Marketing and propaganda cloud everything they touch, and that one market is full of both. We can't even be certain of the public features of those platforms, because there are a bunch of incoherent messages controlling the communication channels. - Most of the features of those products are not public. They impact your life, but you have no chance of even knowin…

Agreed, there's a lot of hidden complexity, but I'm talking about this phenomenon where people seem to lose access to the ability to properly identify things that are clearly visible.

For example, higher in the thread someone seems unable to see a distinction between TikTok and Twitter, and even http://english.www.gov.cn. They indeed have many similar attributes, but this similarity seems to then be presumed to extend to all other attributes. There are blatantly obvious differences in both distinct attributes, and values of those attributes (otherwise, they wouldn't be different applications), yet people seem to be in some sort of a state where they cannot see them.

This is just one example, this thread is full of all sorts of other counter-intuitive (compared to historical norms on HN) behavior, or at least the surface level appearance of it. The way people describe observable reality is just....weird. How can there be such massive variance in observations between (presumably) intelligent people, but only under certain scenarios? And this isn't a one-off anomalous thread either, I strongly believe that this phenomenon has been present and clearly observable for quite some time now. Am I maybe imagining things?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#615

Post by asxd »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #546
localhost wrote: post #20

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

In that post, Ben writes: > It feels like we're talking past each other. I completely agree! I do feel like you and I and Ben (even after reading Ben's post) are still talking past each other. I am completely lost at the point where you say "A and B, therefore C, the US should ban TikTok." What is it about the combination of success and external control that means TikTok should be banned? Ben wrote: > This [video-bas…

As you pointed out, it seems like he's saying from China's point of view, their survival is predicated on an ideological war:

> China is not simply resisting Western ideals of freedom, but seeking to impose their own

And that it is likely they would be willing to use TikTok to further their ideology in the US:

> China has already demonstrated a willingness to censor speech on a platform banned in China; how much of a leap is it to think that a Party committed to ideological dominance will forever leave a route directly into the hearts and minds of millions of Americans untouched?

While no one is proposing banning the other platforms you mentioned that are influenced by China, I feel like that is irrelevant from the TikTok argument. If the two statements above are taken at face value (or the whole article really), then it seems to me that TikTok is indeed a concerning platform when it comes to preserving liberal ideology.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#616

Post by thesz »

danShumway wrote: post #583
thesz wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not talking about dangers of US government banning some app or service. I am talking about about dangers of the very existence of that service ruled by what I consider quite unfriendly people. Unfriendly not to me personally, but to the way US operates. As usual, official justification and real reasons may be very different. The "security threat" may be direct and indirect. I tried to present a picture of indire…

> I am talking about about dangers of the very existence of that service My point is that the indirect threat to the security of the US through priming is statistically tenuous, that there's little reproducible evidence even from optimistic researchers that priming works on a significant scale (or at all), and that even if the threat is real it's likely much smaller than the threat posed by this kind of over-regulati…

I would like to note that your last question equalizes single 60 second video and fake news post. You are discarding effects of repeated viewing of different algorithmically selected videos on the views of viewers. It is an experiment that is being done right now by no less than TikTok itself.

Actually, my beef with the Facebook is exactly the same - one does not control the feed, the feed is being controlled by Facebook.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#617

Post by ace_of_spades »

cooljacob204 wrote: post #600
publicola1990 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either TikTok has right to operate in US or it does not. Is there any letter or terms or conditions of the US law that is prohibiting TikTok from operating? I don't think so. Also it has been allowed to operate for years till now, What sudden change of circumstance has occurred that banning it is imperative now? The government has not made any explanation. Ideal solution in this case would be to define a data securit…

It's not nearly as back and white as you would appear to like it to be. I do not see any laws being broken or US Citizen rights being trodden on with this ban. They're not even setting a new precedent with this ban. It is completely within the executive branches power to ban a foreign corporation for national security reason, reasons that may not be completely clear to the public. Though I think the reason is very cl…

As a European I can‘t resist but to say that I wish that we would start banning all of the American internet cooperations that are required by law to share their data with the US government which has time and time again shown that they are willing to abuse access. Remember the time they wanted to wiretap Angela Merkel? Good times!

It‘s really astonishing to what extent people are willing to be hypocrites not only but especially in the US... American exceptionalism, what a f*cking joke... Might explain how the Republican party and American establishment could create such a mess of the country. It would be funny if it wasn‘t so damn sad and dangerous for all the other countries and people. /rant

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#618

Post by pqhwan »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #455
pqhwan wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be above my paygrade, but you’d start by asking what cards the US holds on the world stage: the dollar, oil, technology (for now anyways).

But that’s also eye for an eye, just of a different kind, is it not?

Well, I’m no pacifist. I’m saying that the latest US move will leave the world with two one-eyed superpowers still in conflict, still on equal footing, when we could’ve taken an arm or a leg.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#619

Post by danShumway »

thesz wrote: post #616
danShumway wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am talking about about dangers of the very existence of that service My point is that the indirect threat to the security of the US through priming is statistically tenuous, that there's little reproducible evidence even from optimistic researchers that priming works on a significant scale (or at all), and that even if the threat is real it's likely much smaller than the threat posed by this kind of over-regulati…

I would like to note that your last question equalizes single 60 second video and fake news post. You are discarding effects of repeated viewing of different algorithmically selected videos on the views of viewers. It is an experiment that is being done right now by no less than TikTok itself. Actually, my beef with the Facebook is exactly the same - one does not control the feed, the feed is being controlled by Face…

> You are discarding effects of repeated viewing of different algorithmically selected videos on the views of viewers. It is an experiment that is being done right now by no less than TikTok itself.

And is there any accepted scientific evidence, at all, that this would change whether we should be more worried about priming effects in a TikTok video than fake news posts directly shared by friends and family?

> Actually, my beef with the Facebook is exactly the same - one does not control the feed, the feed is being controlled by Facebook.

Our concerns with Facebook aren't related to priming. If your concern is that centralization and control over algorithms can be dangerous (especially in the hands of an authoritarian regime like China), then I agree, but I don't see any particular reason why TikTok should pose a unique danger in that regard. CraigJPerry's original comment you replied to still seems pretty on-point:

> Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know.

> [...] what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? It seems a ultra low effectiveness medium for controlled messaging.

The main conclusion I have is that TikTok may pose a danger (just like any social media network), but the dangers it poses are not big enough or well-defined enough to justify this kind of intrusion into the free market. Is that something you agree with?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#620

Post by Angeo34 »

localhost wrote: post #20

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

I can only repeat myself. If the US is spying on Germany it's fine but if China is spying on the US it's bad. Makes sense.
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