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Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

robinoula.com

101–110 of 149 posts

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#101
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…

the other half is sour grapes I think this is a vast overstatement. As a potential employer, it's in my best interests to have colleges create the best applicants possible, regardless of my personal college status. As a parent, it's in my interest to have any sort of college investment I might make to pay off. As a taxpayer, it's in my best interests to get the best return for our government investment. To put this e…

He isn't just sticking you in a bucket randomly. Your language on the subject has an emotional edge that goes beyond dispassionate observation that college education may be overvalued. It actively pushes the reader toward the conclusion that you actually do have a dog in the fight, and the college system has somehow wronged you.

I don't know if it has, but based on said language, I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

My perspective: Having gone to CMU CS, which on the one hand doesn't have particular brand recognition outside CS, but on the other hand is fairly good at CS as undergrad programs go, I believe I can say that I probably did get 100k and possibly even 200k of value out of the education, quite aside from the piece of paper. A lot of the teachers I had were really seriously excellent (and I don't say that lightly), and I wouldn't have been able to learn from teachers that good in that array of subjects (field theory, abstract algebra, robotics, cryptography, etc) as well in any other situation. Yes, I could have read wikipedia and the lkml and so on, but, having done both, classes from really really good teachers work better.

On the other hand, I think I got lucky not only in terms of the ratio of program strength to brand recognition, but also in which teachers I got within the university; if I had taken different classes in different semesters, I believe I could have done a lot worse. Not remotely all the teachers were good or even passable. And, I could easily imagine getting very little value out of the experience, and I bet a lot of people, particularly ones at big-brand institutions, do overpay for the education they get.

The point is, it's a complicated question. There clearly is some value in some undergrad programs, and there also clearly is a problem with rising prices. Comparing it to a con scheme is not really doing it justice.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#102
post #58

Without acceptance criteria -- some neutrally-given test that yields a yes or no -- you can't really measure the function of something. Education has been notorious for refusing to create or abide by acceptance criteria. So it becomes a brand-name game. You pay for the brand, you spend some time getting indoctrinated (most likely to how important this particular brand is) and you get your piece of paper. Somebody sai…

You had me up to here: > You don't really know if it's worth what you spent, because the seller is purposely keeping you in the dark about the value, continuing to assure you that this type of purchase at these rates is absolutely necessary. This isn't like buying a car or a house. My degree has no monetary value, as far as I can tell. I'd love to sell it to the highest bidder, but it's non-transferable. I essentiall…

The license does not explicitly certify that I have any knowledge. It simply does not make that claim.

I don't get this. Although I'm not a big fan of the higher education system, a degree from an accredited institution implicitly asserts that you have received a passing grade in the relevant courses, whether that is determined by exams, project work, or whatever. That's why accreditation is such a big deal; a degree from an unaccredited school is heavily discounted in the employment marketplace.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing? I went to a good school, and I was forced to take all of the worthless general requirements that had nothing to do with anything I cared about. The only thing I still have from those classes is debt. Most people I know tell me that they've had the same experience I did.

What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing? A serious question: Have you ever, since you graduated, wished you knew more about a topic outside the field you got your degree in? Why? Ever wish you had more background in economics, history, politics, or science so you could have more informed opinions on the news or make better choices in your life or at the voting booth? Now, imagine you could go back and t…

I was a science major. Yet every topic I wish I had spent more time studying turned out to be technical. For example, I never took linear algebra, or a course on polymers.

Why not let people be "well-rounded" in a field of their own choosing? We don't insist that every college applicant learn Greek and Latin anymore. Following this further, I can't think of a justification for insisting on any particular requirement at the university, other than to ensure that every graduate should complete a certain number of credit hours with some minimum average course difficulty level. If someone wants to study nothing but chemistry, physics and math, why get in their way? Who is anyone to get in the way of someone who knows what he wants? For those that don't know, how is telling them what they want a legitimate answer?

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing? I went to a good school, and I was forced to take all of the worthless general requirements that had nothing to do with anything I cared about. The only thing I still have from those classes is debt. Most people I know tell me that they've had the same experience I did.

I graduated ten years ago. I am just now starting to regret not paying enough attention to those general education classes that I thought were wastes of my time. I wasn't mature enough to realize how important economics, marketing, political science, and sociology would be to me in 2011.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#105
post #80
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well shit, all I can say on the subject is exactly what an originality-challenged dean would say to his class of incoming freshmen (if deans actually addressed classes of incoming freshmen): what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Want to take advantage of being able to spend four years learning from some of the best minds in every field of human endeavour? Four years set free on hundreds of possible…

It's telling that many of the folks who are pushing the "we don't need no education" meme are programmers by trade, since programming is one of the very few skills that you can learn effectively on your own by reading books. I would say that programming is one of the few high-paying professions that many can break into without certification. There are a lot of skills that can be learned via self-study if one is willi…

Other than extremely expensive research sciences what else requires a university to learn effectively?

You say that so dismissively, like Universities only have a little bit of that kind of thing.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#106
post #18
post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

From TFA: "What does it mean to be educated?" Observing the dialogues over the last few weeks it seems that the participants all define being "educated" differently. But they are not establishing their perspective before stating their cases. In other words, folks aren't declaring and initializing the variable before proceeding with their functional logic.

You mean to say they didn't reset their registers, cascading down an undefined potentially metastable state?

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#107
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but I think there's more to the "regret" group. Consider this: I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market. I can do that by trying to raise the status of my school (see: alumni donations) or by putting down those without degrees (see: degree requirements for jobs). In practice, I'm so disgusted by the entire system that I…

> I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market Conversely it is in the interest of people who do not have a degree to deflate the importance of the degree in the job market?

Of course. Are you suggesting that this isn't true?

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#108
Okay, we are debating the value of education in college and beyond.

My qualifications: I hold a Ph.D. in some topics in applied math from a world class research university. Before the Ph.D. I taught math in one university and computer science in another. After my Ph.D. I was a professor in an MBA program at a Big Ten university and a research scientist in an industrial computer science lab. Now I'm an entrepreneur.

There are two collections of 'knowledge' that are dangerous:

First, there is the knowledge you don't know but you should and should consider using.

Second, is the knowledge you do know but shouldn't and should never use.

Of these two dangers, in practice by far the worst is the second.

My view is that the most important lesson in college is to learn to detect and reject the second of these two dangers.

Next most important is to give you the background and practice in learning so that you can acquire knowledge to get around the first danger.

Next, broadly, there is a big, huge challenge in the world, life, careers, etc. -- doing well with things that are new.

Here is a bold, blunt, fact of life that illustrates the challenge and importance of doing well with things that are new:

A 'career' usually has to last from a person's 20s to their 60s. We may raise that to a person's 70s. So, that's over 40 years of working and maybe 50 years, half a century.

It might be nice to get an education for a 'good job', get such a 'job' in a 'good organization', and hold that good job for one's entire career. But a blunt fact is that so far the number of such jobs, that is, that will last over 40 years, have been only a very tiny fraction of the total number of jobs. None of IBM, GE, GM, AT&T have been able to provide many such jobs. It's not at all clear that Microsoft, Cisco, Google, Facebook, or Twitter will either.

So, during those 40+ years, there will be a lot of changes, and nearly everyone will have to keep up with the changes, with the things that are new. This is important but a challenge.

So, there is essentially no way college or anything else can get you ready for 'a good job' that will last 40+ years if only because such jobs are so rare. So, instead, college can try to get you ready to keep up with things that are new for 40+ years.

Some years ago on TV was an ad for an electronics trade school. They showed a happy graduate standing behind a box of electronics and saying, "Learn to play one of these babies, and you are fixed for life.". What was the box? Sure: It was a computer disk drive with a removable stack of disks, 14" in diameter, with total capacity about 14 million bytes. What a laugh.

So, in simple terms, first, college should teach you not what you need for a 'job' but how to keep up with things that are new for several jobs over 40+ years.

Second college might also teach you how to be a leader in things that are new, that is, be one who gets a lot of benefit from things that are new.

So, in working with things that are new, we come back to the two dangers, knowing things that are bad you should not use and not knowing things that are good you should use. So college should teach you how to separate these two and, for the second, how to learn. And, college might also teach you how to create good, new things you should use.

For how to separate, it is good to have some practice in some solid fields where we can separate relatively easily. Of course the crowning jewel of such fields is math with its theorems and proofs. Likely next is mathematical physics and then other physical sciences, engineering, etc. So, these fields can teach 'intellectual discipline', that is, some examples in at least those fields how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

All this is not very new but goes back to an old saying, "You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.". That is, he has obtained some good means for separating the wheat from the chaff and already knows a lot of the wheat and maybe how to create more.

Is Harvard the only source of such education? Not nearly! There are hundreds of colleges in the US where a good student can get a good education -- maybe the outline here will help them know what to look for and pursue. And there are a few dozen US research universities that can provide world class guidance in creating powerful, new knowledge.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#109
post #64
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me up to here: > You don't really know if it's worth what you spent, because the seller is purposely keeping you in the dark about the value, continuing to assure you that this type of purchase at these rates is absolutely necessary. This isn't like buying a car or a house. My degree has no monetary value, as far as I can tell. I'd love to sell it to the highest bidder, but it's non-transferable. I essentiall…

In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…

There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important.

I'll just note here that this statement appears to be true of every conceivable activity. Every person either did do it--in which case they're either glad or they regret it (or they're indifferent; we could express their satisfaction with a real number)--or they didn't do it, in which case they probably would like to feel that they made the right choice--and "didn't miss anything important" is a way of saying this.

Hmm, I should probably add the stipulation that it must be difficult to change your decision and do the activity. Otherwise there's no possibility of regretting missing it, 'cause then you'd just go and do it.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the other half is sour grapes I think this is a vast overstatement. As a potential employer, it's in my best interests to have colleges create the best applicants possible, regardless of my personal college status. As a parent, it's in my interest to have any sort of college investment I might make to pay off. As a taxpayer, it's in my best interests to get the best return for our government investment. To put this e…

He isn't just sticking you in a bucket randomly. Your language on the subject has an emotional edge that goes beyond dispassionate observation that college education may be overvalued. It actively pushes the reader toward the conclusion that you actually do have a dog in the fight, and the college system has somehow wronged you. I don't know if it has, but based on said language, I'd be surprised if it hadn't. My per…

I'd bet that the net present value of your CMU CS experience is quite a bit higher than you estimate.

As a credential, it's very well known in tech-heavy industries and will help open doors there. Further, it's a good enough school that it will help open doors if you decide to pursue a graduate degree in the future.

As an experience, you got the opportunity to work with top professors and it sounds like you actively sought them out to get those experiences. Further, you almost certainly got to know a lot of students and if you were smart, reliable and hard-working, likely created a situation that could open professional opportunities in the future.

I'll concede that the correlation between a conferred degree and the value captured by the student is not perfect, and that a degree is not the only opportunity to capture value between the ages of 18 and 22. But I largely believe the "debate" consists largely of overblown, hyperbolic rhetoric and oversimplification.

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