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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#61

Post by 082349872349872 »

pacamara619 wrote: post #5

Meanwhile the Swiss people voted to have two weeks of paternity leave instead of one day. The icing on the cake is that the actual initiative asked for four weeks but the parliament made a counter-proposal of two weeks after which the intiative committee withdrew their proposal of four. 60% of the voters were in favor. Two weeks in one of the highest gdp per capita countries of the world. Two. Measly. Weeks. It was j…

To be fair, slow to decide[1], but then actually implemented once decided[2], is a common swiss political pattern. Consider how late universal female suffrage was, and how many female presidents, from how many different parties, we've had since them.

[1] Did Einstein really say "if the world were going to end at midnight, then I'd want to be in Bern, because they'd get around to it sometime around 1:30"?

[2] This is said to be a characteristic of Quakers as well. Maybe all consensus-prioritising systems?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#62

Post by jariel »

gnicholas wrote: post #33

Paternity leave can be a great thing for father/child bonding, and for equalizing opportunity for women (who face greater social/practical pressure to take their leave), who can fall behind male colleagues by taking their leave. Unfortunately, it's hard to force men to take their leave, and in the US a lot of men don't because it is frowned upon socially in many companies. One possible way to incentivize men to take…

"Unfortunately, it's hard to force men to take their leave"

There's no reason to force anyone to do this.

The statement is dystopian. If you offer it to people, and they legit don't want to take it, anything beyond that you're the problem, not the solution.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#63

Post by 082349872349872 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #31
klipt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not many houses in Sweden can fit 12 kids?

I’d say it’s probably more like there aren’t many Swedes who could deal with a house with 12 kids. The after school logistics alone must be a nightmare. Either that, or there’s something plugging the loophole the GP mentions.

Would "taking full advantage of a situation" being frowned upon suffice in swedish society?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#64

Post by jariel »

markdown wrote: post #28
buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The father should be able to choose when and how he bonds with his children. It isn’t for the state to decide the fathers work schedule that is best for him to raise a child. That’s government overreach. It’s one thing for the government to say you may stop working. It’s another thing entirely for them to force you to do so.

Every worker deserves the same opportunity to spend time with their children. The government wouldn't be forcing any father to do anything. The government would be forcing companies to provide all workers the privilege of time off for parenting. A father who didn't want to bond with his children could use the time off to go fishing, take up woodworking, watch youtube videos, or work on a side-business.

Forcing them to step away from work is 100% 'forcing' them to do something.

Enough with this, and the 'Swedish shaming' as noted above.

People are offered leave, that's good, if they don't want to take it, it's none of anyone's business really.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#65

Post by rapsey »

gnicholas wrote: post #38
rapsey wrote: post #34

> Studies have shown that paternity leave can set the tone for fathers’ long-term relationships with their children and families. Children whose fathers took at least two weeks of paternity leave reported feeling closer to their dads even nine years later, according to a joint study of sociology professors at Ball State University and Ohio State University, which also found that paternity leave is linked to lower div…

> Honestly for the vast majority of births the father is unnecessary to be there after two weeks. The child spends the first month basically eating and sleeping. The father needs to be there to help the mother while she recovers. So are you saying the father doesn't need to be there for the child after two weeks? Or are you saying he only needs to be there to help the mother after two weeks? I've heard of some matern…

If the mother is at home with the child and is recovered. My toddlers did not require two full time adults taking care of them.

For the parents I know who did that, they were 100% helicoptering over them.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#66

Post by rapsey »

adamsea wrote: post #37
rapsey wrote: post #34

> Studies have shown that paternity leave can set the tone for fathers’ long-term relationships with their children and families. Children whose fathers took at least two weeks of paternity leave reported feeling closer to their dads even nine years later, according to a joint study of sociology professors at Ball State University and Ohio State University, which also found that paternity leave is linked to lower div…

This is ... based on your own observation and experience?

Two happy kids with a likely third. My experience and observations and discussions with other parents.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#67

Post by pmiller2 »

082349872349872 wrote: post #63
pmiller2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say it’s probably more like there aren’t many Swedes who could deal with a house with 12 kids. The after school logistics alone must be a nightmare. Either that, or there’s something plugging the loophole the GP mentions.

Would "taking full advantage of a situation" being frowned upon suffice in swedish society?

I would say so. Social pressures are very powerful forces that act on humans. Last I checked, Swedes were human, too. :-)

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#68

Post by rapsey »

gwenzek wrote: post #40
rapsey wrote: post #34

> Studies have shown that paternity leave can set the tone for fathers’ long-term relationships with their children and families. Children whose fathers took at least two weeks of paternity leave reported feeling closer to their dads even nine years later, according to a joint study of sociology professors at Ball State University and Ohio State University, which also found that paternity leave is linked to lower div…

> Honestly for the vast majority of births the father is unnecessary to be there after two weeks. The child spends the first month basically eating and sleeping. I took 3 months off for my first and 4 months for the second. My wife was pretty miserable through the first month. Breastfeeding is exhausting, as well as being woke up at various time of the night. I'm glad I was home so I could take care of the rest. I ag…

Frankly that sounds like your partner had problems with depression. Not everyone's experience is the same but requiring 3 months full time care by two adults for a toddler is not the norm.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#69

Post by jariel »

brnt wrote: post #52
buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before people think that this policy is all roses, a close friend of mine is the CEO of a multi billion dollar international business. They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire. Maybe you could argue that the French are better off without them, but people love working for them and they have great pay and benefits. I’m sure there are a number of companies…

In exchange for fewer top paying jobs, France, Germany and most other European countries in fact, favor a more equally distributed income and opportunity. This is motivated by a few centuries of experience: in turns out a more equal distribution (I.e. fewer poor) means less poverty related costs (financial and mental). Somehow companies are getting by just fine paying all of that leave in Europe (in fact, government…

It is wishful thinking that policy makers understood (or even understand today) the 'tradeoff' or have any real awareness of the systematic effects of said labour policies.

Many of the 'side effect' realities, for example as cited by the OP are very real, and go somewhat unmeasured or sidelined.

Europe is not doing very well, it's treading above water, fumbling from crisis to crisis without any obvious pathways out. After the US-driven 2008 crisis, there were years of serious problems with the Euro, to the point wherein Italian banks (and others) were teetering on failure, two national governments were overthrown by the EU (Greece, Italy) there was a major migration crisis ... and then COVID hit. All of this with very problematic demographics, a rising China and an antagonizing US - it does not bode well.

That France (and arguably Spain and Italy) did not undergo similar labour reforms similar to 'sick man of the 1990's Germany' has created ongoing damage.

It's not all a 'one sided story' but there need to be intelligent labour reforms.

The commenter echoes real sentiments across the business community with respect to hiring, even if it's not so perfectly accurate - 'firing' people in France is actually very difficult and a legit barrier to anyone wanting to expand there, among other things.

People don't need to take a year off when they have children. They can, at some reduce pay perhaps, that would be a nice option, but the community doesn't need to share most of that burden.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#70

Post by 082349872349872 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #67
082349872349872 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would "taking full advantage of a situation" being frowned upon suffice in swedish society?

I would say so. Social pressures are very powerful forces that act on humans. Last I checked, Swedes were human, too. :-)

Geopolitics and prison are the only two areas I'm aware of where everything becomes a strictly transactional all against all.
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