Live data from Hacker News

Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

bbc.com

261–270 of 315 posts

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#261
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Tax carbon heavily and then redistribute the tax equally among all citizens. Anyone using above average carbon net pays into the system, anyone using below average gets a net payout. Then markets, our most advanced coordination/optimization method can be utilized to figure out how to reduce our carbon emissions.

The goal is to reduce total use of carbon based fuel sources, not just redistribute wealth. While I agree that redistributing wealth should also be a goal, any solution that doesn’t lower total consumption is useless, so the pain of less consumption would be felt by anyone consumer more than average (which is probably everyone in the developed world).

Redistribution is just a technique to avoid a conflict of interest. They may end up redistributing between more- and less- wealthy people, but that's just a side-effect. Considering that low-carbon technologies are more capital-intensive than high-carbon tech, the redistribution may actually be from less-wealthy to more-wealthy actors.

We want the tax rate to be high enough to disincentivize carbon-emitting actions relative to carbon-neutral (or carbon-capturing) actions. But if government's ability to finance public operations is also affected, then we have a problem. The revenue-maximum tax rate is based on a completely different optimization problem than the carbon-minimum tax rate.

Making carbon taxes revenue-neutral decouples the two policy objectives.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#262
post #83

I think 2015 was the peak of human civilization, and it's been going downhill ever since. It seems like with climate change and loss of biodiversity the next 3 decades will see a steep decline in world wide stability.

The peak of what aspect of human civilization? And why 2015? [Edit: I find it highly unlikely the peak of human civilization, whatever it means, should happen during my lifetime. Surely the Romans in 100BC might have thought the same as you do? Why do you think there won't be people in 2222 who think the same?]

I personally felt that Brexit / Trump marked a turning point where the foundations of the Western world were fundamentally called into question. Things have felt a lot less stable to me since then.

Geopolitics is one thing, but climate and environment are another. I remember in the 90s growing up as a kid hearing all this talk about the environment and if we act now we can turn it around etc. That turn around never came. Global weather events seem to be getting more extreme / frequent. The number of animal species we've wiped out is pretty mind boggling.

It feels like the combined trajectory of geopolitics, the climate, and biodiversity are heading in a direction that won't support life as we lived it in the 20th century.

Id be happy to be dead wrong about that. But it seems to me we've definitely wrecked the planet and that'll have huge consequences that'll change the nature of life on earth. It also seems to be the case that when a society collapses and another emerges the default seems to be an authoritarian regime with democracy being somewhat of an anomaly.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#263
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Cold War, and even WW2 are part of the current period when it comes to the ‘hinge of history’ argument. They’re not saying this year is the most influential, or even this decade. I think it comes down to the explosive industrial growth and technological advances over the last few hundred years, and next hundred years or so. It’s a unique confluence of incredible capability with little understanding of the…

It reminds me of getting on a stand-up paddle board. As you find your balance, there is a wobbling. If you haven't done it in a while, it feels almost certain you will fall. But (usually for me), you find your balance, and suddenly you are floating in the water, like Jesus Christ himself. With all the new elements in society, I think we're all "finding our balance". And once we have, we'll be able to explore the futu…

Ahh yes, nothing like melting the ice caps and flooding several countries to "find the balance" between being able to be alive and everyone on the planet owning 3 automobiles to ensure GM has a profitable quarter

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#264
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sulfur dioxide from a supervolcano eruption would ironically not be considered a disaster if it were to reflect sunlight for a few years. Since we cannot arrange for a supervolcano yet, we could purposely emit sulfur from ships and existing smoke stacks. But wouldn't this cause acid rain eventually? Crops would receive less sun. Fictional remedy to fight solar-powered machines in "the Matrix" - global solar grids wou…

This sounds like the final episode of Dinosaurs (the muppet show). Last line was 'we cant get extinct we have been around for a 150 million years..'.

Though most of their deaths were instantaneous (if it was large meteor) - the other half of the world would have been around for a few more seasons, before the food chain was rapidly squeezed (vaporized atmosphere from ground zero sloshing around pressure systems, sunlight inhibition from dust withering vegetation).

This is why I think that, even facing the chaotic "sloshing" due to projected >8C temperature within a century referenced in parent, a civilization that has practiced/standardized/mass-produced greenhouses at a hectacre-scale could fare well despite the projected drought/storm/fire/sea-rise/permafrost-methane-feedback that is being suggested as consequence. The only "silver bullet" specialty that I know would be beneficial at any point in the future anyways (ability to grow large variety of food in barren areas with limited resources).

Norway has large greenhouse production for higher latitude growth. Commercial sized greenhouse footprint to replace existing traditional outdoor grazing and staple crops would be enormous, which is why it may be more efficient to think of how to modify a biome instead of mass producing plastic/glass/steel enclosed micro climates (which may not be compatible with traditional tractors/combines/dusters which have long been mass produced).

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, again, proves that as an educated society we need to decisively counter the for-profit lies of influential corporations. There is a fundamental problem that may cost us severely in the not too distant future. Fossil fuel companies have paid large sums to lie about the effects of their products on climate change, just like tobacco companies have directly killed innumerous people by lying about the negative healt…

> This, again, proves that as an educated society we need to decisively counter the for-profit lies of influential corporations. There is a fundamental problem that may cost us severely in the not too distant future. Who do you think has or rather should have more power than corporations? The state! And who is constantly crying for a less influential state? The current US administration. As long as we as the voters d…

Don't we have just as much if not more power over corporations? You effectively vote for a corporation each time you do business with it.

We can choose to buy zero emission cars and purchase products exclusively from environmentally friendly corporations. Corporations will either adapt or go bankrupt.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#266

Probably only true if we allow the “hinge” to be a process that spans several centuries, perhaps starting around 1800 with the beginnings of industrialization and gathering pace in the 20th century. If we look at the 21st century so far, it just hasn’t been... that interesting! Indeed some scholars of technological change (to take just one metric) actually think the pace of change has slowed. The 20th century gave us…

> The 21st? The iPhone? Meh.

Humph. I think the iPhone (actually, smartphones) is right up there with the biggest changes of the 20th century. It's what put humanity on the Internet. That may not be so obvious to someone from developed countries, where pretty much everyone already had a PC with Internet connection by then, but that was only about 1 billion out of our nearly 8 billion population... about 6 billion more were connected by smartphones over the last decade. The final billion can't afford those yet, but that's changing fast.

The thing is, the smartphone wasn't just cheaper than a PC; it's more accessible and provided greater motivation for connecting people. Messaging like WhatsApp has lowered the cost of what people were already considering essential (staying in touch with friends and relatives) enough to justify the higher initial cost, and voice commands and voice messaging made it usable even for people who were essentially illiterate. The impact on billions of people's daily lives has been enormous.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lasting 250 years is remarkable stability.

Not if compared to 3000 years of Egypt.

Divide by 30 dynasties, though.

And they were overrun by the Sea Peoples, who set up their own dynasty. Overrun by Kush, who set up their own dynasty. Overrun by Persia, who set up their own dynasty. Overrun by Macedonia. Overrun by Rome. Each of those was an end of an established government.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#268
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Cold War, and even WW2 are part of the current period when it comes to the ‘hinge of history’ argument. They’re not saying this year is the most influential, or even this decade. I think it comes down to the explosive industrial growth and technological advances over the last few hundred years, and next hundred years or so. It’s a unique confluence of incredible capability with little understanding of the…

> We came very close to the world being completely dominated by Orwell style authoritarian one party states. It seems like not only we came close, but it is the very reality we currently live in, we just don't like admitting it. Although instead of one party, we have one class.

If you think that, you have no clue what it's like to live in the real deal.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the things you need to be careful about on the net, predictions of climate doom are definitely one! Know that doom predictions, being very emotionally appealing, travel around the world before science can get its shoes on.

In principle you are right, but this is one case where you have it backwards. The reality that science shows is far worse than what has permeated mainstream culture, on the web or otherwise. The size of the climate disaster, and the urgent need for radical changes in the global economy, simply can't be overstated right now. Unfortunately, the amount of status quo propaganda, especially in the US, is also staggering.…

While I agree that climate change is the dominant issue of our time, I disagree that media is underexposing it. There is quite a lot of unwarranted climate doomsaying. To give an example, in the coverage of natural disasters like wildfires and hurricanes they keep drawing a link to climate change and saying this will get worse and worse due to climate change. But what the IPCC actually says is this:

Increasing exposure of people and economic assets has been the major cause of long-term increases in economic losses from weather- and climate-related disasters (high confidence). Long-term trends in economic disaster losses adjusted for wealth and population increases have not been attributed to climate change, but a role for climate change has not been excluded (high agreement, medium evidence). [1]

The message that what is causing these major natural disasters is mostly people living and building in the wrong places, not climate change, is what the media should be saying, but they tend to link it almost entirely to climate change, which is an overstatement.

[1] https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/SREX_FD_SPM_...

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#270
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you're coming from but one doesn't need references to say that water is wet. This is a similar case. "Science" (people like you and me that looked into the matter, did experiments, asked critical questions, and presented their work) finding that we are causing the climate to change into something that is less favorable to humans than our current climate is abundantly clear to anyone who will either read t…

There is a huge difference between what I was responding to... > The size of the climate disaster, and the urgent need for radical changes in the global economy, simply can't be overstated right now. ...and your take, which I fully agree with: > "Science" (...) finding that we are causing the climate to change into something that is less favorable to humans than our current climate is abundantly clear to anyone

Ah okay, now I better understand what you meant.

Personally I think it's true that the size of the climate disaster is absolutely enormous and we really do need radical changes throughout the global economy. But if you don't share that opinion then I see why you'd want to see a citation with such a statement, even if you don't deny that the CO2 in the air is man-made and causing the planet to become a lot less hospitable to us.

So I'll oblige and go to Wikipedia's climate crisis page, which provides under the heading of "Scientific basis":

> While powerful language had long been used in advocacy, politics and media, until the late 2010s the scientific community traditionally remained more constrained in its language.[13] However, in a November 2019 statement published in January 2020 issue of the scientific journal BioScience, a group of over 11,000 scientists argued that describing global warming as a climate emergency or climate crisis was appropriate.[14] [...]

> Also in November 2019, an article published in Nature concluded that evidence from climate tipping points alone suggests that "we are in a state of planetary emergency", defining emergency as a product of risk and urgency, with both factors judged to be "acute".[15] The Nature article referenced recent IPCC Special Reports (2018, 2019) suggesting individual tipping points could be exceeded with as little as 1—2 °C of global average warming

The page does warn for the backlash from the alarmist phrasing, but at least many scientists appear to find this phrasing accurate. They're not infallible but it does seem to be our best understanding of the situation.

Post reply on HN