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Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

arxiv.org

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Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#31

Post by ncmncm »

saltedonion wrote: post #17
ncmncm wrote: post #12

Every time this pops up on HN, people post insisting that it won't all go away, that the skyscrapers will, somehow, still be there. No, they won't. Look at any place in the world where there are mesas. All of the land around the mesa used to be level with the top of the mesa. It has all eroded away, and in only a few million years. So, the metals will corrode, collapse, and wash away. The stone will erode away. The c…

Is total human/intelligent species population not a prerequisite for industrialization. If so, we would expect to see a lot of fossilized remains, which we have not seen.

We have found exactly one (1) skeleton of a Clovis person, the dominant human culture of North America for several centuries, right up until exactly the start of the Younger Dryas cold spell, only 12900 years ago.

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#32

Post by dr_dshiv »

vbezhenar wrote: post #24
DougWebb wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true about the oil; coal too. If we're not completely wrong about how those resources are created (there are some alternate theories) then we're the first civilization to use them. However, most of what I've read about prehistoric advanced civilizations discussed them using crystals (quartz) and deriving energy from the earth. Some form of piezoelectricity. There are theories today connecting earth quakes, qua…

We sent humans to space and robots to Mars and other planets, we are extracting energy from nuclear fission, we will likely build an artificial star soon enough. It's extremely unlikely that we could have missed some mysterious quartz power source.

After a couple thousand years of computational evolution, if you don't think there'd be a possible reason for leaving behind massive silicon crystals... Well, you haven't been reading enough science fiction.

If you could grow pure crystals more easily (thinking Diamon Age), why not have giant plates serving as a piezo generator or ambient electromagnetic waveguide harvesters?

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#33

Post by Zhenya »

ffhhj wrote: post #20

A highly responsible civilization that achieves space fairing tech could rebuild its environment, leaving a clean planet as a gift for future species to emerge, and move to the stars. Sort of artifical-creationism, but phycally achievable, it's a matter of civilization goals.

Why would they spend resources doing this?

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#34

Post by Veedrac »

ncmncm wrote: post #12

Every time this pops up on HN, people post insisting that it won't all go away, that the skyscrapers will, somehow, still be there. No, they won't. Look at any place in the world where there are mesas. All of the land around the mesa used to be level with the top of the mesa. It has all eroded away, and in only a few million years. So, the metals will corrode, collapse, and wash away. The stone will erode away. The c…

This argument disproves fossils.

E: To be pedantic, it only disproves most fossils.

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#36

Post by analyte123 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #3

I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…

There are plenty of places within a two hour drive or train ride from NYC where you can see gigantic steel concrete and brick structures that are less than 150 years old well into the process of dissolving. If you live in prosperous cities and don’t have to maintain property, it’s understandable how you can be unfamiliar with the relentless processes of rust, melt-freeze weathering, erosion, storm damage, how quickly vegetation grows, and so on.

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#37

Post by jack_pp »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #32
vbezhenar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We sent humans to space and robots to Mars and other planets, we are extracting energy from nuclear fission, we will likely build an artificial star soon enough. It's extremely unlikely that we could have missed some mysterious quartz power source.

After a couple thousand years of computational evolution, if you don't think there'd be a possible reason for leaving behind massive silicon crystals... Well, you haven't been reading enough science fiction. If you could grow pure crystals more easily (thinking Diamon Age), why not have giant plates serving as a piezo generator or ambient electromagnetic waveguide harvesters?

So a civilization thousands years more advanced than us failed to go to space (evidenced by the fact that they did not leave behind any space junk) but somehow produced energy from crystals?

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#38

Post by jandrese »

ncmncm wrote: post #12

Every time this pops up on HN, people post insisting that it won't all go away, that the skyscrapers will, somehow, still be there. No, they won't. Look at any place in the world where there are mesas. All of the land around the mesa used to be level with the top of the mesa. It has all eroded away, and in only a few million years. So, the metals will corrode, collapse, and wash away. The stone will erode away. The c…

At one level yes, most everything built will disintegrate with time, but we have fossilized footprints from dinosaurs. An industrial society disappearing without a trace seems unlikely. Although the vast majority of the evidence would be lost there will always be traces left if you know what to look for.

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#39

Post by TeMPOraL »

Veedrac wrote: post #34
ncmncm wrote: post #12

Every time this pops up on HN, people post insisting that it won't all go away, that the skyscrapers will, somehow, still be there. No, they won't. Look at any place in the world where there are mesas. All of the land around the mesa used to be level with the top of the mesa. It has all eroded away, and in only a few million years. So, the metals will corrode, collapse, and wash away. The stone will erode away. The c…

This argument disproves fossils. E: To be pedantic, it only disproves most fossils.

And, as predicted by the argument, the fossils don't abound, and to find them you have to start digging.

Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?

#40

Post by jandrese »

Retric wrote: post #14
imglorp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone methodically looked for artificial materials like microplastics in the geological strata?

Yes, in that people try and identify what’s there. No, in that it’s not expected to find evidence of a prior advanced civilization. The prior existence of oil as an easily recoverable resource is a strong indicator that nothing like our civilization existed in the last several million years.

Indeed most of our fossil fuels were created during a window in the evolution of life on Earth where plants had developed tough cell membranes that the microbiota could not deal with and transformed the planet into a massive mountain of underbrush in a heavily oxygenated environment. The forest fires must have been spectacular. Trees grew tall and eventually died. Then they fell over, but did not rot. Instead stacking deeper and deeper. This is why we have seams of fossil fuels in the ground to draw from today.

If we wipe ourselves out the following civilization will have a much tougher time getting through their equivalent of the industrial age, especially if they're dealing with the aftereffects of climate change.

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