Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
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Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#2Article by the authors of this paper,
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/are-we-e...
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#3I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years.
I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just going to dissolve.
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#4I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
Wouldn’t glaciers grind them to dust?
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#5I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
There is better argument and it is surface natural resources.
We know, that before industry took off we had huge amount of natural resources almost lying on the ground. Now many of crucial resources have to be dug from huge depths or recovered from dilute sources.
I can't imagine a previous industrial civilization leaving huge amount of resources available on the surface. Almost by definition, industry is about scaling and efficiency and it always look to get to the results as quickly as possible.
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#6I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
To be fair, industrial-level civilization (engines, mass production, etc) doesn't actually require large, reinforced concrete structures[0].
That said, the answer to TFA's question is "almost certainly yes, unless they deliberately tried to conceal geological evidence of their existence, and probably even then".
0: nor vice versa, technically, though the logistics of using pre-industrial steel as building material would be prohibitive. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24591216
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#7I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
The steel doesn't last too much, this link claims only 1200 years. https://www.quora.com/How-long-can-stainless-steel-last-for#....
I'm not sure about that number, but the ancient the bronze swords are better conserved than the steel ones.
Plastic will get washed away, and glass may get crunched and be difficult to find.
The rest of the concrete has a longer lifetime.
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#8I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
Wouldn’t glaciers grind them to dust?
I would guess that glaciers would encapsulate the skyscrapers and dislodge them from their foundation, and when they receded leaving a huge pile of steel and concrete. Even if that was later encapsulated by magma, future geologists would have to wonder about metal 'veins' that were so structured and why part of the rock was basalt and another part was an exceptionally hard and dense form of limestone.
Note to self. Don't speculate on HN. Got it. :-)
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#9I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
The Authors seem to be saying a visit to a barren planet shouldn't be written off as "no life".
Evidence of civilization could be just below the surface.
Re: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in geological record?
#10I admit I did not read the entire publication, but, at least at face value, this seems somewhat absurd to me. Within the past couple hundred years humans have built massive structures in cities that should last for many millions (hundreds of millions?) of years. I mean, Manhattan may be under water in 100 million years (or, much sooner), but all those gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren't just…
It sounds like “gigantic steel, concrete, plastic and glass structures aren’t just going to dissolve” really depends on timescale, and geologic timescales are far beyond our typical experience.
From the Atlantic article by one of the authors: [1] [2]
When it comes to direct evidence of an industrial civilization—things like cities, factories, and roads—the geologic record doesn’t go back past what’s called the Quaternary period 2.6 million years ago. For example, the oldest large-scale stretch of ancient surface lies in the Negev Desert. It’s “just” 1.8 million years old—older surfaces are mostly visible in cross section via something like a cliff face or rock cuts. Go back much further than the Quaternary, and everything has been turned over and crushed to dust.
[1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/are-we-e...