Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#81

Post by pavlov » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 4:57 AM UTC

Infinitesimus wrote: post #55

ddlutz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is $500k really "average" engineer compensation at top tech companies? That's the average compensation for an L6 at Google, which has an average tenure of 13.2 years https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html . Many people will max-out at L5 in there careers. Compensation is really good in tech, but I don't think saying "$500k/yr total comp for average engineers" is helping anybody.

Not even close to it. Anecdotally, most are between low $100k to $400k depending on level, luck and tenure. However stacking RSU appreciation and refreshers can skew those numbers a lot. The $500k plus is L6+ or Netflix-like companies

I find it a bit strange that people count stock appreciation when reporting total compensation. It’s not very helpful for someone looking to compare salaries.

Those RSUs and refreshers are always granted based on a dollar amount that gets divided by current stock price, and that’s the value that the company recognizes in its accounting. Stock price increases are nice, but they distort the picture of how the company is valuing your compensation internally.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#82

Post by jghn » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

ydlr wrote: post #68

jghn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my company I get headcount based on level, not raw dollars. Once I +1 a candidate at a level, it moves to HR and they are the ones doing the negotiation. At that point I become an advocate for them to get more compensation. It behooves me to have HR not play hardball and to max out their comp at the level I've specified as that makes it more likely the candidate signs. Once in a while HR will ask me "Are you sure?…

Just out of curiosity, if a candidate asks what the salary range is for the position, do you tell them?

Yes, but I also explain how our HR dept calculates target compensation within a level and that ultimately the comp decision is out of my hands. I have a good sense for where candidates are in a band and try to set expectations accordingly.

If they're pushing for more than HR wants to give, like I said I'm an advocate but the final say isn't mine if they're pushing tooooooo far off the calculated target amount.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#83

Post by geodel » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

MetallicCloud wrote: post #6

dudul wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think programming is moving away from automation. We're no longer writing code or fancy algorithms. We are plumbers connecting systems and APIs. However, the true value of the engineer in 2020 is that they're the one trying to make sense of idiotic product requirements. They're the ones turning shiny, half assed mockups into real products. That cannot be automated. If the value was only in pissing lines of code the…

I've read similar things about how most programming work is just plumbing together existing code fairly regularly on HN. Is that really what most people do? Is it a web development thing? That's not my experience at all, and it sounds mind numbingly awful.

Last month one of my friend joined Amazon. At one point this person worked along with engineers who would implement highly optimized systems in C/C++. Now at Amazon his job will be to write little Javascript turdlets to call and parse ten different Amazon services and generate some sort of database table/report to be used by product managers.

The way this guy described his work made me (developer of half-assed micro services) feel like a rocket scientist.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#84

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

legerdemain wrote: post #43

> Virtually any amount of money available to you personally is > mouse droppings to your prospective employer. > They will not feel offended if you ask for it. Two comments. (a) I interviewed with Wealthfront last year. They offered $160K, which was lower cash comp than any of my other offers. I tried to open the door to negotiation. The recruiter and the dev lead then got on the phone with me to awkwardly explain th…

[deleted]

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#85

Post by peferron » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:17 AM UTC

shuckles wrote: post #54

legerdemain wrote: post #43

> Virtually any amount of money available to you personally is > mouse droppings to your prospective employer. > They will not feel offended if you ask for it. Two comments. (a) I interviewed with Wealthfront last year. They offered $160K, which was lower cash comp than any of my other offers. I tried to open the door to negotiation. The recruiter and the dev lead then got on the phone with me to awkwardly explain th…

In the case of Wealthfront, it may be a cultural matter as their CEO specifically believes that negotiating your offer is a negative indicator: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20130708151000-56725-offer-co...

Like many others, I disagree with several points of that article.

First, even if you're dead set to work at company X, it's a good idea to get offers from companies Y and Z to help you negotiate. If X is primed for success, as the article recommends, then X should have no problem matching up because a good hire should bring in many times more revenue than what could be saved by pinching pennies on the offer. As a candidate, it's also great to be in a situation where you have multiple offers in the same range, because that allows you to take comp out of the equation and make your decision purely based on which company and role would be the best fit.

Second, it's OK if the first company you work at fails. Early in your career, learning as much as you can is more important than success or failure IMO, and failure can be a tremendous learning opportunity. The article recommends joining a company that's already almost certain to succeed; this means all the critical problems were solved before you joined, and all that's left is to execute. It's great to learn how to execute well, but it's also far from being the whole picture.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#86

Post by fractionalhare » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

srtjstjsj wrote: post #75

bruckie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you've interviewed. Here's the text (from https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... ): "432.3. (a) An employer shall not rely on the salary history information of an applicant for employment as a factor in determining whether to offer employment to an applicant or what salary to offer an applicant. (b) An employer shall not, orally or in writing, personally or through an agent, seek salary…

Why haven't all the big company pay scales leaked yet?

I have good news for you: https://levels.fyi :)

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#87

Post by mehrdadn » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

jaaron wrote: post #5

Speaking as a hiring manager for 10+ years: If I've done my job right, I've sourced engineers experienced, confident and smart enough to negotiate and ask good questions around compensation. I want to make sure that we have an open conversation so that both sides can move forward to the actual job at hand. Tip: California based firms are required to give you a salary range if you ask for it and they can't ask you for…

Does "California based" mean "your office will be in California"? Or does it mean "the company is incorporated in California"?

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#88

Post by throwawayincog » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

throwarayes wrote: post #61

I spent several years underpaid at a lifestyle company as a specialist. I didn't want the golden handcuffs, I didn't want the pressure. I've learned this was a big mistake If you're paid at market value for your particular set of skills, your employer is making a commitment to use them. When they underpay you, you won't get to do the awesome thing that you do as much. So by being paid more there's incentive for the e…

I've managed to feel like my career has spiraled down while my salary has spiraled up after leaving a more "lifestyle"(let's say heavily culture focused, yet still performance focused) startup. I'm not sure anyone has a solid understanding of my work history..

Company was just acquired and I'm stressed AF trying to figure out if I can even make it to my 1 year RSU cliff to start seeing my retention comp. Not super interested in being back at a big public company working this far down the hierarchy(been working directly for company founders/C-level most of the past 8 years).

So, yeah.. I'm would tend to agree to an extent but certainly not absolutely true. I'll feel it's likely I'll end up back at a "lifestyle" business sooner or later.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#89

Post by hammock » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

quicklime wrote: post #17

> We’ve been talking about your employer as an abstraction, but in the instant case you’re talking to an actual person. Let’s call him Bob. It is Bob’s job to get you signed with the company as cheaply as possible, but Bob is not super motivated to do so, because Bob is not spending Bob’s money to hire you. Bob is spending Bob’s budget. Bob generally does not get large performance incentives for shaving money off of…

If what you describe is the case, and HR doesn't have veto power on your offers, why not hire at the top of the range, and take a kickback from the person you hired? (hypothetical)

Don't downvote me for suggesting this, I'm trying to expose a weakness. I suspect more likely scenario is what @jghn shares, wherein HR is the one with the offer power, to avoid the hazard I suggested.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#90

Post by nullsense » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #74

nullsense wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody wrote their own stack top to bottom other than the TempleOS guy. He was the greatest programmer that ever lived.

He passed? I’m genuinely sorry to learn this. His work was a welcome reminder of unexplored possibilities.

Yeah, I believe he did die. From what I understand he was mentally ill and lead a fairly troubled life. Watching his walkthrough of TempleOS is pretty fascinating.

And for those who didn't get the reference:

https://youtu.be/o48KzPa42_o