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Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

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Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#11

Post by pianoben »

MetallicCloud wrote: post #6
dudul wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think programming is moving away from automation. We're no longer writing code or fancy algorithms. We are plumbers connecting systems and APIs. However, the true value of the engineer in 2020 is that they're the one trying to make sense of idiotic product requirements. They're the ones turning shiny, half assed mockups into real products. That cannot be automated. If the value was only in pissing lines of code the…

I've read similar things about how most programming work is just plumbing together existing code fairly regularly on HN. Is that really what most people do? Is it a web development thing? That's not my experience at all, and it sounds mind numbingly awful.

How often do you write hashtables? JSON serializers? Mutexes? HTTP clients? Transaction managers? Connection pools?

In my last job as a mobile engineer I can claim that I wrote code all day, and that's true to a point, but most of that code is shepherding data from one format to another, using libraries that I didn't write, causing the UI (whose framework was written by someone else) to update.

And you know what? It's still a hard and rewarding job! Having pieces to plumb together hasn't made our jobs easier or dumber, it's just raised the level of abstraction at which we work day-to-day.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#12

Post by [deleted] »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3

most of my bosses have made me feel petty when asking for an extra $10k/yr i've found that when working for corporations, it's all about the number you ask for up front. after that, it takes quite a bit to get more than the average 3-5% merit pay bump. how FANG companies work with the $500k/yr total comp for average engineers, i have no clue... i think from what i've seen from levels.fyi the most common salaries are…

[deleted]

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#13

Post by dudul »

MetallicCloud wrote: post #6
dudul wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think programming is moving away from automation. We're no longer writing code or fancy algorithms. We are plumbers connecting systems and APIs. However, the true value of the engineer in 2020 is that they're the one trying to make sense of idiotic product requirements. They're the ones turning shiny, half assed mockups into real products. That cannot be automated. If the value was only in pissing lines of code the…

I've read similar things about how most programming work is just plumbing together existing code fairly regularly on HN. Is that really what most people do? Is it a web development thing? That's not my experience at all, and it sounds mind numbingly awful.

I don't want to necessarily draw general truths just from my XP. I think it's a spectrum :)

When I compare programming (as in, just writing code) today and 20 years ago, there is nothing really interesting to write anymore. We have libraries for everything, and half of them are clients to integrate with a SaaS that does what you want. The challenges I see that still makes the job stimulating are more found in the architecture design (we have all the building blocks now, but we still need to organize it all in a way that works) and the product (as I said, making sense of business reqs and turning them into something do-able).

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#14

Post by shajznnckfke »

jaaron wrote: post #5

Speaking as a hiring manager for 10+ years: If I've done my job right, I've sourced engineers experienced, confident and smart enough to negotiate and ask good questions around compensation. I want to make sure that we have an open conversation so that both sides can move forward to the actual job at hand. Tip: California based firms are required to give you a salary range if you ask for it and they can't ask you for…

Although most of the variation in comp for engineers is in equity, so a salary band will only do so much for you.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#15

Post by shajznnckfke »

MetallicCloud wrote: post #6
dudul wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think programming is moving away from automation. We're no longer writing code or fancy algorithms. We are plumbers connecting systems and APIs. However, the true value of the engineer in 2020 is that they're the one trying to make sense of idiotic product requirements. They're the ones turning shiny, half assed mockups into real products. That cannot be automated. If the value was only in pissing lines of code the…

I've read similar things about how most programming work is just plumbing together existing code fairly regularly on HN. Is that really what most people do? Is it a web development thing? That's not my experience at all, and it sounds mind numbingly awful.

I think the whole reason software is so productive (economically speaking) is that you can leverage software written by others. Depending on your mindset, you could call that “just plumbing”, but a more positive way to describe it is “using the best tool for the job”. The person who wrote the tool you are using could also think they are “just plumbing”. There’s always layers below you and often layers above you too. Nobody wrote their own stack top to bottom other than the TempleOS guy.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#17

Post by quicklime »

> We’ve been talking about your employer as an abstraction, but in the instant case you’re talking to an actual person. Let’s call him Bob. It is Bob’s job to get you signed with the company as cheaply as possible, but Bob is not super motivated to do so, because Bob is not spending Bob’s money to hire you. Bob is spending Bob’s budget. Bob generally does not get large performance incentives for shaving money off of his hiring budget: you get a new Macbook if you convince Bob to give you $5k extra, but Bob gets (if he is anomalously lucky) a dinner at TGIFridays if he convinces you to take $5k less.

I've been saying this to people for years, and I'm glad to hear someone else say it. As a hiring manager, I'm not paying your salary out of my own pocket, so I don't give a shit if you want (and get) an extra $10k. My job is to fill the headcount that I've got, so as long as it fits within budget, whatever.

I don't think anything less, or more, of people who ask for extra - I usually forget by the time the person starts the job. It's not my money. I don't care.

And neither does "the company" - a corporation is an abstract legal entity that is incapable of human emotions. It's not going to get mad at you because it thinks you're greedy. Don't anthropomorphize it.

At least at my company (and from what I understand, most companies) it's a lot easier to get a pay bump when you're negotiating the offer, than it is to get a raise/promotion. When you're getting a job offer, you're a one-off special case and there are a lot of unknowns. When it's performance review season, everyone is potentially getting a salary increase, so there are tighter budgets to stick to. My advice is to get what you can up front, and worry a bit less during the annual cycle.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#18

Post by nullsense »

shajznnckfke wrote: post #15
MetallicCloud wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read similar things about how most programming work is just plumbing together existing code fairly regularly on HN. Is that really what most people do? Is it a web development thing? That's not my experience at all, and it sounds mind numbingly awful.

I think the whole reason software is so productive (economically speaking) is that you can leverage software written by others. Depending on your mindset, you could call that “just plumbing”, but a more positive way to describe it is “using the best tool for the job”. The person who wrote the tool you are using could also think they are “just plumbing”. There’s always layers below you and often layers above you too.…

>Nobody wrote their own stack top to bottom other than the TempleOS guy.

He was the greatest programmer that ever lived.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#19

Post by howlgarnish »

Brushfire wrote: post #2

This is all generally very good advice but I’m equally amused at the ridiculous portrayal of “businessmen” throughout this post; most people do not see themselves this way and it’s sort of goofy to think they do. But that isn’t terribly important to the message. Oh, and one other thing, if you’re at a 10-person ish startup, definitely don’t act like a company that is 1000ish. You’ll lose. And so your hiring practices…

The point of the post is that you should see yourself as a businessman, even if it feels goofy: you're not begging for crumbs, you're negotiating price with another business.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#20

Post by doopy1 »

quicklime wrote: post #17

> We’ve been talking about your employer as an abstraction, but in the instant case you’re talking to an actual person. Let’s call him Bob. It is Bob’s job to get you signed with the company as cheaply as possible, but Bob is not super motivated to do so, because Bob is not spending Bob’s money to hire you. Bob is spending Bob’s budget. Bob generally does not get large performance incentives for shaving money off of…

I think companies under a certain size and it's a different story.
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