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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#931
post #173

Can users and developers who are in favor of keeping the App Store as is form an advocacy group too? I’ve been collecting a list of arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo on iOS and I’ve yet to see anyone offer a good solution to these: ---- The problems with letting all apps advertise external payment systems: • Someone may publish a free app to avoid paying anything to Apple, and then charge users [an ass…

> One store may allow some content while another may prohibit it. Yes, that's a good thing. > How will iOS sandboxing be enforced for apps delivered via third-party stores? This seems like a non-problem. Sandboxing is a local OS feature. > e.g. what happens if a store starts writing malware? The same thing that happens when the apple and google app stores do that. Reputation loss, or more likely: Nothing. > How will…

> Yes, that's a good thing. re: One store may allow some content while another may prohibit it.

Please don't half-quote selectively: "Developers will no longer all play by the same rules."

> This seems like a non-problem. Sandboxing is a local OS feature. re: How will iOS sandboxing be enforced for apps delivered via third-party stores?

For an app to be sandboxed it must be submitted to Apple and signed. Ergo: You would have to go through Apple anyway.

> The same thing that happens when the apple and google app stores do that. Reputation loss, or more likely: Nothing. re: what happens if a store starts writing malware?

There has been no cross-app malware on the iOS App Store.

> Why does it have to be? re: How will that privilege be regulated to prevent abuse?

If a third-party store and/or the apps served by it contain malware, but users aren't aware of it (e.g. cryptocurrency mining, data harvesting, and other silent exploitation of users' devices), it's good to have someone who is able to remotely shut those apps down.

> It shouldn't be. re: Controversial content like porn may still ultimately be bound by Apple's ruling...

...are you seriously saying porn and "adult" apps (like prostitution services and even more questionable material) should be allowed on Apple devices?

You're literally out to forcibly dismantle the entire value proposition of a company's products.

Are you going to force Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo to do the same for their consoles? Why only Apple? Just because they're too successful? They became this successful because of these restrictions. People want a curated platform.

> How so? Especially screen time restrictions is a non-issue for different stores. How is the rendering engine for a browser the restricting factor for content control? re: iOS Parental Control and Screen Time restrictions may be ineffective on other stores (and browsers too if third-party rendering engines were allowed).

They have to go through the official APIs to adhere to system-wide content restrictions set by a user, which requires reviewing and signing by Apple, otherwise they could just skip the official APIs and ignore any parental control settings etc.

> All other points are questions of convenience.

You haven't given any solutions to any of the questions, other than:

• Don't use it.

• It's not a problem.

The same answers apply to the status quo:

• Don't use Apple devices.

• A single App Store is not a problem for the majority of users:

All other points are questions of convenience.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#932
post #208

All the arguments about what company is most evil entirely miss the point. You don't make a decision on a specific issue based on what company you like more, you base it on who is right on the specific issue. From an ethical perspective that's what having a codified rule of laws is all about. Everyone get's the same rules no matter how much you like them. You don't arbitrarily punish people for doing things you don't…

The question from a principle standpoint is - can a company create an area where trust / safety / security are prioritized. T Developers no doubt disagree with this, they have created a web that is filled with crap. Let's be 100% clear about that. Spam calls via voip, spam into email, ddos floods of every sort imaginable, impossible to unsubscribe, cramming and slamming on subscription renewals and the list goes on.…

Apple can have their garden, nobody is complaining.

The issue is one of choice and consumers ability to go beyond the walled garden.

The issue of 'scams' is a canard: there are browsers on iPhones that allow users to be involved in any number of hustles.

"Now the same folks who trashed a lot of the rest of the web (do you answer your phone when an unkown number calls?) want into the walled apple garden."

This just doesn't make any sense, moreover, it has nothing to do with 30% margins.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#933
post #837
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a reason the seller is mentioning while trying to hide mentioning that to you from Ebay.

No hiding required. Inserts are allowed according to eBay policy: https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/payment-policies/offers-b...

It doesn't read to me that way.

>Buyers and sellers can't:

>In any communications with another eBay member, refer to or promote external websites that facilitate sales outside of eBay

I would count sending a "letter" along with your product to be a form of communication.

>Use contact information obtained through an eBay transaction to offer to buy or sell an item outside of eBay

This would prevent you from adding the insert to the package.

>Offer catalogs or other items that are used to order items directly outside of eBay

An insert is effectively a mini catalog. So they pretty much explicitly banned inserts. If you aren't even allowed to sell them for a price then sellers clearly wouldn't be allowed to give them away for free.

Sending an insert along with a product breaks 3 policy points at once. Can you describe which part of the policy actually allows inserts? All I see is that Ebay wants to have complete control over communications between seller and buyer.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

The "bad behavior"? Are you joking. You realize people pay apple EXTRA because they value their product? Their product holds its value far LONGER on the secondary market because it is maintained so well? You can get unlocked android phones and install whatever you want. But the reality for our parents / grandparents etc is that the folks who want to have root on their device want to scam them, auto bill them with non…

It's sad that people fall for the "privacy first". I recently got a new Macbook and opting out of the cloud services was a real hassle, and sometimes the settings pop back on updates. Apple wants your data, they just don't want anybody else to have it.

I buy some of my devices from apple because I like the hardware. The walled garden is annoying and has nothing to do with resale value. The resale value is high because of continuing updates and nice hardware - you'd factory reset everything you buy second hand anyway.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#935
post #859
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To keep the continuity of discussion, I assume that this comment was posted here because my top level comment was in part a reply to your (temp667's) comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579860 I appreciate the attempt to connect this to the anti-trust suit, but I don't see this as a good justification for why your original critique is relevant for a few reasons: - Many of the practices in your origin…

Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Understanding this is fundamental to the actual legal issue at hand. First, the argument against Apple is not that they are bundling an App Store with their iPhone. The argument agai…

"They chose that route for a myriad of very significant reasons relating to user experience, usability, privacy, security, safety, brand & reputation, performance, and accountability."

This is incredibly naive.

They chose it to be this way for the purposes of profit.

Android is testament to the fact that high degree of quality and security and consistency can be maintained without any of the most iOS aggressive restrictions.

There is no material difference between security on either platform, they're both generally fine, apps are great on Android and people are not falling off the side of the earth because of 'scams or fallouts' regarding Android.

The existence and relative quality of the Android universe renders most of the arguments for iOS walled garden moot.

The term 'monopoly' may not apply perfect, but it's reasonable in the discussion, the anti-trust issues are obvious and have many historical parallels.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#936
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does Epic get to monopolize their game's monetization? The answer to this question is quite obviously that the smart phone market is much much larger, and has a much higher impact on society, than an in game cosmetics market. This is what courts care about. They care about real life consumer impact. And anyone who is not stupid, or intentionally trying to mislead people, can understand than the smart phone mark…

How exactly are consumers impacted by Apple's App Store? Other than having a consistently good experience where they are safe from malicious actors, privacy violations, manipulative subscriptions, malware, etc.

> How exactly are consumers impacted by Apple's App Store?

The fact that a huge platform, prevents competing app stores, is a huge impact, due to the fact that the market is so large.

That is anti-competitive, and this is bad because the platform is so large.

And the impact is the anti-competitive nature of it, on a large market.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't give me root access to my iPhone, I do not care about it, I have no need for it, and I do not want it Then don't turn on root mode? Nobody will force you to do anything, if I am given the option of easilu turning on root mode, and you can simply choose to not turn that on.

I’m all for people wanting rootmode, I just don’t want more freedom and choice on my device, I see no need for it and I like the way Apple can streamline everything by forcing everyone to interact with their device on their terms. And obviously I realize that this doesn’t go for everyone, and that’s completely okay . I just don’t think Apple should be forced to make their phones into full-on computers just because so…

> I just don’t want more freedom and choice on my device

Then don't turn on root mode? Is that really such a large infringement on you? The fact that there might be an option in your phone, to turn on root mode, and the mere fact that this switch exists somehow mind controls you and makes you turn it on?

If an easy switch in the phone exists that says "Allow competing app stores to be installed", why can't you simply not switch that on?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#938
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to agree with apple, but they clearly think the halo effect of having just one reasonably fair app store on their platform increases their platform brand power and profits both. I think they are right. I agree, but "it makes us more money and gives us more power" has never been a defense against anti-trust law. Indeed if this was not true I imagine that anti-trust law would never have been necessary…

On the ad-blocking side, Android fans are blowing this out of proportion. First of all, Safari’s content blockers, while far less capable than uBO, are pretty adequate for the time being. In my experience, iOS Safari + Wipr is fine. Also, and this point is underrated, content blockers work in most app web views. For example Twitter’s or Gmail’s. Not all web views of course. Facebook for example chooses to use a web v…

> From simple things, like pinching to zoom, with the fonts getting all blurry.

This is an aside to your conversation, but just wanted say we're currently rolling out webrender to more devices in the new version of Firefox for android, and it fixes the blurriness when zooming.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't give me root access to my iPhone, I do not care about it, I have no need for it, and I do not want it Then don't turn on root mode? Nobody will force you to do anything, if I am given the option of easilu turning on root mode, and you can simply choose to not turn that on.

I really think we should rename "root mode" to "DANGER 90000 VOLTS AHEAD" or something similar. Root mode _is_ that dangerous. You wouldn't want to allow astronauts "root access" to their starship launcher; you don't want car drivers to have "root access" to tinker with the brakes in their car. You don't want patients on ventilators to have "root access". You don't want non-doctors to access their health data without…

> should not be allowed to mess with systems that can literally end their life by exploding in their pockets!

This is non-sense fearmongering.

Giving people the ability to install fortnite, on an official fortnite app store, is not going to cause people to die from phone explosion

It is just not going to happen. Fortnite is not going to blow you up.

The reason why I know this to be the case, is that half the US smartphone market, allows people to side load APKs, and install fortnite that way, and people aren't being blown up because they had fortnite on their phone.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#940
post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let’s apply this same logic to accessibility. Let’s say the government says “devices must have voice over functionality”. Ok, great. Apple puts that as an option, and we’re done. The same applies for if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. Apple adds a setting in the settings menu. You still get your locked down device by default, and much like blind people, people who care about…

> if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. Apple adds a setting in the settings menu. You still get your locked down device by default, Users will just flip it off for the first evil app they told to install by friends. Think about 95% of all users.

It’s still sandboxed. What evil thing would it be doing?
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