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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#871
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow what point you're making. I mentioned nothing about monopolies, disallowing anyone from making a phone or console(?), nor Apple specifically. My comment was about smartphones in general. It's pretty simple. Gaming consoles are primarily (almost exclusively) for entertainment. Smartphones are for accessing information, essential services (ie. banking), directions, forecasts, and news. They also facilita…

> Absolutely terrible analogy. How about instead you were denied the right to own a smartphone? Who exactly has been denied the right to own a smartphone? Speaking of terrible analogies... You are repeatedly conflating the iPhone with all smartphones. Saying that the smartphone is a mandatory device does not contradict the idea that the iPhone (a specific luxury brand of smartphone) is not.

If you quote me, please don't omit the context. Which was:

How about instead you were denied the right to own a smartphone? But were told it's okay because hey, you have a console! It's a perfect substitute!

A game console is not, as I'm sure you'll agree, a substitute for a smartphone. Which is what the (intentionally ridiculous) hypothetical was illustrating. The analogy of the parent was Coke v. Pepsi, but that falls flat because one is near perfect substitute for the other (for the vast majority of people).

>You are repeatedly conflating the iPhone with all smartphones.

The parent said "the iPhone is a console, end of story" which means all smartphones are consoles.

Right?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#872
post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for providing the source about encrypted backups, that's chilling. Can you provide sources for other claims in your comments? I want to read up more on what sorts things these apps do. Apple is by far the best when it comes to privacy relative to the others. Would you trust Microsoft, Google, or literally any other company (even Canonical Ubuntu) more than Apple?

Microsoft, Google, and Apple are all participants in the PRISM program, which provides data to the US federal government without a warrant (FBI and military intelligence) under the authority they claim via FISA Amendments Act Section 702. Edward Snowden is the reason we know about this. https://www.eff.org/702-spying Any data you provide to any of those companies (or any others that have been added in the time since,…

The spying thing is a problem with US gov. Why are you dinging Apple for that? In fact, Apple refused to unlock the phone when FBI requested for the famous shooting case (I forgot). Others do the same - Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. Apple is complying to the law.

Also, Apple is putting encryption in hardware to prevent this sort of a thing. They don't have keys to the device.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

I only find them useful for topics I do not understand because they are very complex and abstract. For example the explanation of linking voltage/current/watts to pipes with flowing water made sense to me because electrons moving through a conductor is too abstract but saying "Voltage is like water pressure, it makes the electricity move faster" makes sense.

I hate the water / electricity analogies because they don't make sense.

Voltage is not like water pressure. If you have a high water pressure, water will inexorably be pushed through the pipe to relieve the pressure. That's so regardless of whether the pipe is 1 inch or 1 yard in diameter.

Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current. A high voltage on its own - like static electricity - will not move many electrons through the conductor.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they never want to take this to its logical conclusion which is every manufacturer would have to provide the means for anyone, including direct competitors, a means to sell software through their device. So do we also force any app store owner to also provide access to their payment services as well? If Apple is forced to open the iPhone do they also have to grant access to the phones secure means of payments? T…

Why would they have to open up secure payments? Is that an API that first party apps on the App Store access? Or are the apps that access it part of the operating system? This is mostly targeted at apps like Apple Music where Apple allows deep Siri integration without allowing the same to competing apps.

> This is mostly targeted at apps like Apple Music where Apple allows deep Siri integration without allowing the same to competing apps.

it seems that, according to Spotify, Siri works with Spotify.

https://support.spotify.com/us/article/siri/

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings > For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void I work at a pretty big company, where we are trusted to make a lot of important decisions but as I understand it even small companies have trainings to identify "phishing, clickbait, social engineering, etc". Every relatively big company also pre-approves devices that can connect…

The issues you describe are happening on computers where by default there is no sandbox, so an evil game or a bad application can do a lot of damage. But in an OS with strong sandbox and a good permission model the fact you add a dude to review your app does not add some extra security, from what I see this review people will check to make sure you follow the GUI /UX guidelines and also make sure you don't give the u…

I agree, with a strong enough sandbox I am very happy to use sideloading. Fortunately, iOS provides Safari for such a sandbox.

According to screen time on iOS, I use Safari 2x more than all my other native applications combined. Including to play games. Especially with "Login with Apple", and "Apple Pay" I find that most websites are as easy to use as native applications.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#876
post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only find them useful for topics I do not understand because they are very complex and abstract. For example the explanation of linking voltage/current/watts to pipes with flowing water made sense to me because electrons moving through a conductor is too abstract but saying "Voltage is like water pressure, it makes the electricity move faster" makes sense.

I hate the water / electricity analogies because they don't make sense. Voltage is not like water pressure. If you have a high water pressure, water will inexorably be pushed through the pipe to relieve the pressure. That's so regardless of whether the pipe is 1 inch or 1 yard in diameter. Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current. A high voltage on its own - like static electricity - will not move many…

A high water pressure in a container will also not move. High pressure water moves to low pressure areas just like high voltage moves to low voltage when a path exists.

A larger pipe will push more water at a lower pressure like a low resistance wire will move more energy at a lower voltage.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#877

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

> Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. I have the choice of buying a completely controllable android device if I want to install mystery apps willy-nilly. I'm not interested in that, and there are millions like me. I want a locked-down device that keeps developers in check. This situation is much like the browser nightmares of the past, where Firefox users complained…

> I have the choice

A lot of people don't or aren't even aware of the dangers of walled gardens. Like it or not goverments job is to regulate and protect people and the economy: be it monopolies, user data or anti-competitive practices.

Libertarians aren't ios target, it's average casual tech ignorant people who'll blindly trusts the system because they don't care.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#878
post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely terrible analogy. How about instead you were denied the right to own a smartphone? Who exactly has been denied the right to own a smartphone? Speaking of terrible analogies... You are repeatedly conflating the iPhone with all smartphones. Saying that the smartphone is a mandatory device does not contradict the idea that the iPhone (a specific luxury brand of smartphone) is not.

If you quote me, please don't omit the context. Which was: How about instead you were denied the right to own a smartphone? But were told it's okay because hey, you have a console! It's a perfect substitute! A game console is not, as I'm sure you'll agree, a substitute for a smartphone. Which is what the (intentionally ridiculous) hypothetical was illustrating. The analogy of the parent was Coke v. Pepsi, but that fa…

I understand the context but I think you've actually largely misunderstood the point of the original poster you were quoting:

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story.

That poster was suggesting the iPhone is an intentionally locked-down device similar to the way that consoles are locked-down devices. They also suggested there are alternative devices on the market (Android for smartphones, PCs for gaming) that are not locked-down for users who prefer that approach.

Whereas you've interpreted the original post to mean that smartphones have the same level of utility as consoles, but no one actually suggested that. So you jumping in to point out that smartphones are more useful than consoles is, while true, not really relevant to this particular discussion.

> The parent said "the iPhone is a console, end of story" which means all smartphones are consoles. Right?

No, see my above explanation. Regardless, they specifically used the word iPhone, why did you think it was appropriate to interpret that to mean all smartphones? If I said "a Ferrari is X" no one would reasonably interpret that to mean "all vehicles are X".

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#879
post #859
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To keep the continuity of discussion, I assume that this comment was posted here because my top level comment was in part a reply to your (temp667's) comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579860 I appreciate the attempt to connect this to the anti-trust suit, but I don't see this as a good justification for why your original critique is relevant for a few reasons: - Many of the practices in your origin…

Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Understanding this is fundamental to the actual legal issue at hand. First, the argument against Apple is not that they are bundling an App Store with their iPhone. The argument agai…

> Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market.

Precedent deeply disagrees with you on this. At the supreme court level see Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services Inc. To quote the first paragraph of wikipedia out of laziness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Tec....

> Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Servs., Inc., 504 U.S. 451 (1992), is a 1992 Supreme Court decision in which the Court held that even though an equipment manufacturer lacked significant market power in the primary market for its equipment—copier-duplicators and other imaging equipment—nonetheless, it could have sufficient market power in the secondary aftermarket for repair parts to be liable under the antitrust laws for its exclusionary conduct in the aftermarket.[1] The reason was that it was possible that, once customers were committed to the particular brand by having purchased a unit, they were "locked in" and no longer had any realistic alternative to turn to for repair parts.

This has been held at the appeals court level to apply to products as well as repair services (because why wouldn't it). See newcal industries v. ikon office solution. Unfortunately since a large portion of the opinion focuses on this, it's hard to find a single quote that summarizes. Read the background and then search aftermarket in the opinion: https://www.leagle.com/decision/20081551513f3d103811540:

Here is my best attempt at picking out a relevant paragraph that explains the law:

> Taking these cases together, three relevant principles emerge. First, the law permits an antitrust claimant to restrict the relevant market to a single brand of the product at issue (as in Eastman Kodak). Second, the law prohibits an antitrust claimant from resting on market power that arises solely from contractual rights that consumers knowingly and voluntarily gave to the defendant (as in Queen City Pizza and Forsyth). Third, in determining whether the defendant's market power falls in the Queen City Pizza category of contractually-created market power or in the Eastman Kodak category of economic market power, the law permits an inquiry into whether a consumer's selection of a particular brand in the competitive market is the functional equivalent of a contractual commitment, giving that brand an agreed-upon right to monopolize its consumers in an aftermarket. The law. permits an inquiry into whether consumers entered into such "contracts" knowing that they were agreeing to such a commitment.

So I don't think it's a slamdunk whether or not Apple's secondary markets here are aftermarkets that anti trust can be applied to because of the third point in the above paragraph, but it's not a slamdunk the other way either, and your claim that you can't have a monopoly on IPhone apps because IPhone is apple's product is fundamentally flawed (rather, if it's true, it's because purchasing an IPhone is akin to signing a contract that you will only use IPhone apps distributed from Apple, and that you will only use Apple's payment system on those IPhone apps).

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#880

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

Normal people run on stories and analogies.

Epic doesn't need the tiny number of technical people to win their case. Epic needs the vast number of users to be on their side in order to win their case.

HN is not the target of that "manifesto".

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