Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#421

Post by zepto »

actuator wrote: post #324
nicetryguy wrote: post #75

I'm surprised at all of the negativity here. The changes proposed would be great for developers, even if (most) of the companies involved are shady, their reasons are selfish, and the obvious "astroturfiness" of the website is laughably dissonant and reeks like a dirty think tank that hasn't been cleaned in months. Apple has no qualms about absolutely screwing developers historically. I'm happy to see some pushback.

I have also been really surprised with the whole debate on this saga here. For developers, this looks like such a no brainer because they should personally relate to what these companies are asking for.

None of this would be great for developers.

Having to deal with a multitude of stores run by companies that are even shadier than Apple is not good.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#422

Post by nostrademons »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #344
munificent wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. My experience is that this is very true among a certain group of people, particularly literal-minded software enngineer types. But it is much less true in the general population where a single good analogy can accomplish more than pages of…

My experience is analogies are erroneously as supporting arguments to jump from premise to conclusion of an unrelated topic. I saw them a lot at my family's various religious/cult gatherings when I was a kid. The preacher would state something and then "prove" it with an analogy. Analogies don't accomplish anything in basically all of the uses I've seen. People want them to serve as proof, but it's a lazy way of gett…

That's assuming a level of critical thinking that exists on HN and a few other forums but isn't really common to the general public.

Most people go into a new topic or new issue area with a basically neutral stance. They aren't looking to disprove the argument, nor do they even view it as an argument. Rather, they're thinking "OK, show me how this is relevant - tie it into my life and how it affects me, then I'll make up my mind based on my feelings afterwards" (in a far more subconscious way - basically nobody actually goes through these thoughts consciously). Analogies are your chance to do that. Get the right one and people associate your issue with something they already hold a positive position on. Get the wrong one and they just ignore you.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#423

Post by _qulr »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #400
danShumway wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of blindness I'm seeing from companies on both sides of this fight about how to handle their optics is kind of staggering. One of Apple's core arguments for why they need this kind of control is privacy. If someone is launching what is essentially a PR campaign against Apple, one of the first things to do is to make sure the website doesn't have any appearance of violating people's privacy. Make it work wi…

This. The problem is regardless of it being either side of Hanlon's razor, malice or stupidity, I have built trust with Apple and prefer the centralized Apple (over the decentralized dev-houses of the world) to do its best to ensure neither malice nor stupidity in the product I use most throughout the day.

> I have built trust with Apple and prefer the centralized Apple (over the decentralized dev-houses of the world)

IMO this is a false dichotomy. Epic and Spotify are not the size of Apple, but they're still giants compared to little indie developers.

I trust indie devs way more than any of the BigCos. It's just natural: the fewer customers you have, and the less market power you have, the more you care, the more you have to care, about your individual customers.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#424

Post by plandis »

echelon wrote: post #377
plandis wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market. It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money rather than claim youre on the verge of tears?

> Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market. It looks like they command between 33% and 46% of sales in the US per quarter. [1] That's a lot of people. Many of them use their iPhone as their only computer. > It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money I want freedom back. I have projects that make zero money that I want…

> Dealing with Apple is like living under an authoritarian regime. We don't have any choice but to deal with them because of the power they wield.

I’m not sure I’m following. You are being forced to develop for Apple devices against your will?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#426

Post by spideymans »

0xDEEPFAC wrote: post #307
rblatz wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You start off with Apple has enough money and supposing that you know better how to run a successful App Store than the company with the most successful App Store. Maybe the App Store is so successful because it’s customers are the people that own the phone not the devs. I know I absolutely don’t want competing app stores, that ends with fragmentation and having to deal with a pile of installed app stores to download…

Lets replace "Apple" in your response with AT&T. "You think you know better how to run a successful phone service than a company with the most successful one?". No, I don't exactly, but I have enough common sense to see that they are doing wrong. And sure they have the most successful (and only ) app store compared to the only other app store. But yea fragmentation/choice is just awful and without a doubt will lead t…

>Your reply comes off as very authoritarian and controlling. If you like the app store then you should have the choice to use it. What you are saying is that devs shouldn't have access to other options because you dont understand why they wouldn't use the perfect one already there.

Oh, I get that the App Store isn't perfect for developers. That's perfectly fine though. My concern is end users, not developers (software developers aren't benevolent actors).

Developers, such as Facebook, haven't exactly conducted themselves in a way to earn my trust. I'm happy to see them ensnared in the App Store's rules (at least the ones pertaining to privacy, security and general user experience). There's a reason you see users (even right here on HN) celebrating when Apple imposes an ever growing risk of privacy policies on developers. It's because users have learned we cannot trust developers.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#427

Post by nicetryguy »

cafed00d wrote: post #405
nicetryguy wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an easy opinion to have when it's not your livelihood. Does consumer centric focus necessitate draconian developer policies?

> That's an easy opinion to have when it's not your livelihood. Isn't this sensationalist? Developers, just like Apple or any other software maker, can be incentivized to work _against_ the consumer. PC on '00s had many developers whose livelihood compelled them to bundle their apps as "free trials" in PCs. As a user, I had to deal with pop-up after pop-up asking me to buy the full thing; each of those apps took up d…

>>> Because "great for developers" just shouldn't matter. It should be about what the consumers want.

>> That's an easy opinion to have when it's not your livelihood.

> Isn't this sensationalist?

No.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#428

Post by yladiz »

Why should I read this website and take it seriously if I can't even read the cookie policy without accepting cookies, and when I actually do attempt to read the policy (thanks Reader Mode) I am told that to opt-out I have to disable cookies in my browser?

Looking further and reading their privacy policy in the section titled "Your European Rights", I see this:

> You have the right to ask us not to process your Personal Data for marketing purposes. We will usually inform you (before collecting your Personal Data) if we intend to use your Personal Data for such purposes or if we intend to disclose your information to any third party for such purposes. You can exercise your right to prevent such processing by checking certain boxes on the forms we use to collect your Personal Data.

This is backwards. It is my right to not have you process my personal data for marketing purposes unless I opt-in, not my right to opt-out. This is an important distinction, and the fact that they have a poorly worded privacy policy on this makes me feel like they didn't really do their due diligence on this very basic stuff.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#429

Post by zepto »

candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

This!

Which is why I absolutely reject Epic et al’s position.

They want to be part of a small exclusive group of store owners who get to share in the benefits of Apple’s investments.

Very different from the device freedom you are calling for.

It must also be said that device freedom cannot come at the cost of security and trust.

I and presumably you, have the capability to make good decisions about what software to trust.

Most people must delegate this to a trusted third party.

I would support a legal requirement for iOS devices to have a bootcamp equivalent.

That way Epic and whoever else wants to build their own platform would be free to do so.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#430

Post by sixstringtheory »

stale2002 wrote: post #393
panragon wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this discussion nearly daily when talking with Android users. The iPhone is not a modular unit that can be tampered with at all, but despite even being a software developer, I do not actually care about my phone being modular. I want it to work and I want it to work well across the entire platform. Not only does iOS severely limit your options for changing your phone's UX, something a lot of people lament abou…

> Please don't give me root access to my iPhone, I do not care about it, I have no need for it, and I do not want it Then don't turn on root mode? Nobody will force you to do anything, if I am given the option of easilu turning on root mode, and you can simply choose to not turn that on.

Once root mode is an option it will be exploited. The weakest link in software systems is often a human.
Post reply on HN