Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#101

Post by Razengan » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

Can users and developers who are in favor of keeping the App Store as is form an advocacy group too?

I’ve been collecting a list of arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo on iOS and I’ve yet to see anyone offer a good solution to these:

---- The problems with letting all apps advertise external payment systems:

• Someone may publish a free app to avoid paying anything to Apple, and then charge users [an asston of] money to ""unlock"" via an alternate payment system.

• Users may not be able to see a list of all in-app purchases (and their guaranteed prices) as they can on the App Store, without downloading the app.

• Sharing your payment details and other information with multiple entities, and having to continually trust each of them (e.g. to not abuse or leak).

• Confused users may clog up Apple's customer support with complaints related to third-party payment systems.

• Angry users may demand Apple to offer refunds for shit that was paid for via third-party payment systems.

---- The problems with allowing third-party app stores on iOS:

• How will iOS sandboxing be enforced for apps delivered via third-party stores? Will those apps still have to be submitted to and signed by Apple?

• Store apps would need the privilege to write binaries on your iPhone. How will that privilege be regulated to prevent abuse? e.g. what happens if a store starts writing malware?

• Users may sometimes have to wait longer for an app to update on one store than on others (as already happens on Steam vs GoG).

• Developers would no longer be assured that they will have access to literally all the users that iOS has, by publishing on just one store.

• You would have to submit to each store, wait for approval on each of them, update for each of them... to come close to the userbase that you can currently access by just publishing once on the App Store.

• Developers will no longer all play by the same rules. One store may allow some content while another may prohibit it.

• Controversial content like porn may still ultimately be bound by Apple's ruling on such matters, rendering moot the freedom of third-party stores in what kind of apps they may offer.

• iOS Parental Control and Screen Time restrictions may be ineffective on other stores (and browsers too if third-party rendering engines were allowed).

• If an app or game is exclusive to a store that a user isn't already using, they would have to create a new account and maintain an additional app just to access that one exclusive.

• Not all stores may be compatible with the iOS backup and restore system, or the APIs for app-thinning and on-demand resources.

----

To resolve many of those issues, Apple would have to ultimately step in anyway.

The need for third-party stores is really not that great to offset the advantages offered by the current system.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#102

Post by mthoms » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

vonwoodson wrote: post #80

But, can we just say: f ck Fortnite. This is the wolf calling for homes to be built of straw. We hate “free to play”/“pay to win” and in-app purchases. We HATE* them. Thank god that Apple is taking a stand. I haven’t been so happy with a company since they refused to unlock that dude’s phone in California a few years back. (Which, I know, the lawsuit ended the same day an iOS “security” patch came out.) Seriously. If…

>Thank god that Apple is taking a stand.

What exactly is Apple doing to combat the scourge of “free to play”/“pay to win” and in-app purchases? From where I'm sitting, they seem perfectly fine with it (as long as they get their cut).

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#103

Post by dpratt » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

This is a flawed analogy. The correct one would be Cheerios printing "If you buy me at Costco, I cost $1 less" on the outside of the box. No rational retailer that isn't Costco would carry that product.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#104

Post by rblatz » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

0xDEEPFAC wrote: post #37

electriclove wrote: post #3

Apple built their controlled ecosystem and set their rules. And now others are insisting that Apple should not have that control (even when they themselves are doing the same thing).

But it is impossible to bypass the store for any normal person. Think about it, you are a normal person who wants to continue to use an application and for some reason the dev has been kicked out of the store (this often happens and the devs often have no idea why or how). You would be frustrated no? Not to mention the mental stress of the poor devs which are subject to inhuman automated responses, neglect, and abuse…

So I’m not sure what point you are arguing but it’s either that consumers are stupid and don’t really want a secure phone and walled garden and would want to take that choice away from customers by law.

Or that Apple needs to charge less for access to the App Store while also spending more money (to stop the inhuman auto replies and actions)

Both are terrible arguments

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#105

Post by bad_good_guy » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #76

candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

If users didn’t want these things, users wouldn’t buy them. For the vast majority of people, and iPhone is way, way better than a computer that can run any app, precisely because it can’t run any app they click on. I’m a hacker, so I would love to be able to install any software I want on my iPhone, and introspect it in other ways. Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were…

Its a lot simpler than users wanting a device that 'cant run any app they click on'.

The vast vast majority of users don't consider anything except the marketing. And apple is good at marketing. So people want iOS devices.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#106

Post by m12k » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #50

Ah, okay. Now I begin to see their goals. I've been trying to wrap my head around why Epic would shoulder-tackle Apple in the space of app stores, when they have their own app store. Naively, I've been thinking that any ruling adverse to Apple here also impacts Epic's business model---if the government caps app store revenue cuts at, say, 10%, that's a slice off the top of what Epic can charge developers going throug…

It's highly unlikely that a regulator would cap Apple's cut at e.g. 10% like that. Apple is using a monopoly on distribution to enforce a monopoly on payments (and can thus monopolistically set prices arbitrarily) so it is most likely a regulator would force them to allow competition on distribution and payments, and thus allow the market to change the 30% organically, rather than just enforce a different arbitrary cut.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#107

Post by karpierz » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #78

karpierz wrote: post #19

If I build an operating system + hardware, should I be legally mandated to provide tooling to make it easy for users to find and install arbitrary software?

I don't think you should be legally mandated to make it easy , but if you sell a product to someone you shouldn't be allowed to stop them using it in the way they want to. If you do choose to retain control over how they can use the device then you should accept there might need to be regulation over what limits you can put in place in order to stop you doing things that are anti-competitive.

If users want to jailbreak their devices, that's up to them.

Apple doesn't stop you from doing anything with your device, Apple thugs won't break your kneecaps if you subvert their restrictions.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#108

Post by damnyou » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #76

candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

If users didn’t want these things, users wouldn’t buy them. For the vast majority of people, and iPhone is way, way better than a computer that can run any app, precisely because it can’t run any app they click on. I’m a hacker, so I would love to be able to install any software I want on my iPhone, and introspect it in other ways. Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were…

Yes, this is partly about Apple being "punished" for its success. That is a good thing. Entities that are too successful become too powerful and should be "punished" for it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#109

Post by la_oveja » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

vonwoodson wrote: post #80

But, can we just say: f ck Fortnite. This is the wolf calling for homes to be built of straw. We hate “free to play”/“pay to win” and in-app purchases. We HATE* them. Thank god that Apple is taking a stand. I haven’t been so happy with a company since they refused to unlock that dude’s phone in California a few years back. (Which, I know, the lawsuit ended the same day an iOS “security” patch came out.) Seriously. If…

How is Fortnite "pay to win"?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#110

Post by ketzu » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

xlii wrote: post #31

I just canceled Spotify membership I had for years for now. I don't have anything for Spotify or their fight with Apple. It makes sense. But on the other hand I refuse to help Epic in any initiative they take or to endorse companies that sides with them. Epic is in my eyes evil company and they done a lot of bad things in area I care about. I know that few of my friends do the same right now. It probably doesn't matt…

> Epic is in my eyes evil company and they done a lot of bad things in area I care about.

Can you elaborate on that? It's hard to follow for me.

Also: You don't give money to epic, you also think the goal of spotify in that case makes sense. But you are willing to hurt a goal that you think makes sense because someone you don't like also thinks that goal is worth fighting for? This seems unnecessary and a bad strategy.