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How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

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Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#261

Post by nicky0 »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #176
nicky0 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't a good summary of the bill, and it didn't even mention preferred pronouns. What it actually did was add "gender identity or expression" to a list of protected characteristics to be considered when prosecuting hate speech and as a factor in criminal sentencing. (Peterson's interpretation was that it would have the effect of making misgendering or failure to use preferred pronouns into hate speech, thus that…

Oh so it's even more silly and blown up than I thought. I'd go back to correct myself but unfortunately I can't since the post is too old. Thanks for correcting me!

Do remember though that Peterson's submissions against the bill (alongside Gad Saad if I remember right) was not really all that silly and blown up. It was the subsequent reaction where people said "this guy is a far right transphbic bigot" and blew it all out of proportion and made him famous. And then there was the whole Lindsay Shepherd/Wilkred Laurier affair.

What I am saying is you might think JP lit a stupid fire, but don't forget that a lot of people came along and poured a lot of oil it.

I find it a bit odd that people are mad at a guy for having concerns about a proposed law and raising them as part of the bill's scrutiny process. And don't forget that in the end, the lawmakers weren't persuaded by his arguments, and passed the law anyway.

Would people rather live in a world where laws are passed without scrutiny, everybody keeops quiet and nobody makes a fuss? I still think somewhere underneath all the nonsense a lot of valuable public discussions were had.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#263

Post by watwut »

darkerside wrote: post #249
watwut wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The said words affect everyone in the room. When someone is offending you and you don't respond, it pretty often affects how other respond to you too. > even teach yourself to internally process those messages as constructively No, you need to teach yourself to respond to them. And for that you need to stop pretending they do no harm. And stop blaming yourself for feeling bad after someone insulted you. Really, when…

I'm not saying bullying doesn't exist, or that it shouldn't be responded to appropriately. But I think people miss that there is a TON of speech that is not malicious on nature but gets treated as such. That's not bullying, and if you respond to it with defiance, you're escalating situations, not building trust with people different from you.

Why is angry response to my defiance considered warranted while my defiance as response to perceived hostility is not? My defiance is not malicious either.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#264

Post by Razengan »

twobuy wrote: post #215
Razengan wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the main reasons why I prefer living in big cities. Big Cities also amplify loneliness and make it more crushing when you just keep getting lost in the crowd. Concrete jungles with more traffic than trees are also a depressing drain upon the soul. My ideal sweet spot is Small Towns near a Big City that you can dip into once every weekend or so.

This sounds great to me, but could you give an example of the sort of town you mean? I am only really experienced with NYC, which due to geographic and traffic constraints, just seems difficult to dip into more than once a month.

I'm not aware of any in NA, but I have a few places staked out in Europe and Asia to potentially retire in. What I was talking about depends on efficient nationwide mass transit, which I assume is generally better in smaller countries.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#265

Post by darkerside »

watwut wrote: post #263
darkerside wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying bullying doesn't exist, or that it shouldn't be responded to appropriately. But I think people miss that there is a TON of speech that is not malicious on nature but gets treated as such. That's not bullying, and if you respond to it with defiance, you're escalating situations, not building trust with people different from you.

Why is angry response to my defiance considered warranted while my defiance as response to perceived hostility is not? My defiance is not malicious either.

It's not. But an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. You can continue to participate in that cycle, and most do.

I'm simply pointing out that there's another option, which is to get off that train. And it's actually quite simple to do.

There's a little voice in our heads that says we can't let the other person win. If you want to, you can ask it questions. Like, win at what? What's the prize? What is it worth? And not always, but sometimes, the answer is there nothing at stake and you should pick your battles.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#266

Post by darkerside »

watwut wrote: post #254
darkerside wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have much now control over my thoughts and feelings in response to words than I used to. Here, for example, almost ridiculously, I felt a moment of anger that someone who so clearly had missed my point would so confidently respond with examples that are not relevant to it. That lasted a microsecond. I've learned to tell myself a different story. You're not being properly obtuse, your actually have a different set o…

> You're not being properly obtuse, your actually have a different set of life experiences and intuitions than I do, and that leads you to interpret my words in a way that I didn't intend. Intentionally obtuse people exists. Intentionally obtuse responses exist and are not rare. Treating them as good faith does not work and just gives them more power. You change situation into innocent one and that is different topic…

All of those are threats of violence, not the violence itself. In most if not all cases, you are right. I'm making a theoretical argument to disprove a thesis, that words themselves have power to hurt outside of the power we give them. If you say something to me, and I don't fear you, then your words have no power over me.

I realize there are intentionally obtuse people out there, but I don't think you were being one of them. And I believe that the pathway to a better society is presuming positive intent until demonstrated otherwise. And even perhaps one step beyond. What looks like undeniable hatred to you may actually be benighted misunderstanding and ignorance that deserves to be corrected, lovingly and gradually if needed, over the course of a lifetime.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#267

Post by exadeci »

Natales wrote: post #34

No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be po…

When English/American say that Europeans are rude it's because we say No and we are clearer about our emotions and intentions, no so much bs.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#268

Post by zajio1am »

pc86 wrote: post #224
jgwil2 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent means it is the norm for this to happen to most people, but rather that at-will employment[0] is the norm and this is a possibility, however remote, that most people have to reckon with. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

There is quite a bit of difference between " it is the norm to be fired on the spot and without recourse for something that has nothing to do with your job" (a direct quote, I don't believe missing any context but open to counterarguments) and "a legal framework exists in which a thing could conceivably happen, even though it doesn't happen in any statistically significant numbers"

Even if it does not happen in significant numbers, such possibility and few widely-reported cases cause chilling effect.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#269

Post by [deleted] »

dmichulke wrote: post #5

Book recommendations in that respect: - "No more Mr. Nice Guy" Robert A. Glover: A great book on identification and elimination of nice guy behaviors with lots of exercises. - "When I say no I feel guilty" Manuel J. Smith: Techniques with lots of examples on how to stay assertive and deal with attempts to manipulate you into doing something. Relevant for dealing with colleagues, spouses, shop clerks, ... There are ot…

[deleted]

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#270

Post by mistersquid »

darkerside wrote: post #248
mistersquid wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most powerful thing about words is the power the listener gives them. Human beings are neurologically wired to biologically respond to communication from other beings. A classic example is nursing women who express milk when hearing a baby cry. There are many other examples of involuntary responses to environmental stimulus, much of which include human communication. Loud noises cause involuntarily muscular res…

I have much now control over my thoughts and feelings in response to words than I used to. Here, for example, almost ridiculously, I felt a moment of anger that someone who so clearly had missed my point would so confidently respond with examples that are not relevant to it. That lasted a microsecond. I've learned to tell myself a different story. You're not being properly obtuse, your actually have a different set o…

> Here, for example, almost ridiculously, I felt a moment of anger that someone who so clearly had missed my point would so confidently respond with examples that are not relevant to it.

I believe my examples, especially regarding blood cortisol levels with regard to threatening behavior, are very relevant.

Another example

> I felt a moment of anger

You controlled your response, but you likely had little to no control over that initial “moment of anger”, which is my point.

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