The EU is set to declare war on encryption • Hacker News Board

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#141

Post by type0 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #105

malwrar wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns are controversial because they kill things and are thus a weapon. Encryption cannot kill anyone, if anything it is a shield. It’s also an infinitely replicable shield, and one that is omnipresent. I don’t think anyone believes they can ban it, but like tax evasion it’s probably going to be a nice excuse they can use to catch the people they don’t like that do use it. For the rest of us, don’t worry—they’ll make…

This is it. They don't intend to stop use of encryption, but it does give them probable cause to investigate or arrest you if you are caught using encryption. It's a tool of law enforcement to get around "blocks" like needing a warrant, etc.

> It's a tool of law enforcement to get around "blocks"

yeah like waterboarding is a tool around "blocks" of calling it torture

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#142

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #133

dahfizz wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty subjective. The right to free speech and to defend yourself + your property is severely diminished in the EU. The EU and US definitions of "human rights" are pretty different.

I think free speech is much stronger in the EU. No central military means no central system of classifying things and no Espionage act. Similarly, gun rights are states rights in the EU. I shot an AK47 in Poland, seems pretty liberal to me...

You can find examples where certain US states or EU states have more freedom in a certain area, but the USA has a much more absolutist view towards human rights than the EU does in general.

In the EU, rights are subservient to "the greater good" (as defined by those in power). Some examples:

Germany will arrest you for using "symbols of unconstitutional organization". This includes the Communist Hammer + Sickle[1]

France has forced many mosques closed because the government found them to be too extreme[2]

All employers in the EU have the right to ban the Hijab and any religious dress[3].

And of course, you can be arrested all over the EU for speech that is deemed hateful.

In the EU, you only have your rights within reason. Once the exercising of your rights makes other people upset, they are curtailed.

Again, the US and EU have different definitions of "human right". So depending on what you think your rights are, you make feel you have more rights in the EU than in the US. But for those things that the US decides to protect as rights, they are on average protected much stronger than in the EU.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

[2] https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosq...

[3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-cou...

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#143

Post by type0 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #69

Please support Electronic Frontier Foundation if you want to help fighting this: https://eff.org .

Or European Digital Rights Initiative if you are in Europe https://edri.org/

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#144

Post by Guthur » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #113

ben_w wrote: post #25

The headline doesn’t seem to be backed by the content of the note they’re quoting. I do wish papers would reserve “war” for actual wars; while I would be appalled if this goes all the way through, a note saying “we want to have a chat and this is why” is slightly further from even a metaphorical war on encryption than Farage is from an actual war on Brussels.

> “war” for actual wars Every generation of warfare [1] looks completely indistinguishable from the previous one. 5th generation warfare [2] is "war" in every sense of the 1st principles of war. However, it manifests in a way that is unrecognizable in traditional surface-level manifestations of war. If anything, "not looking like a war" is a primary goal of 5th generation warfare. > But the next generation of war – t…

5GW sounds very much like the wars fought by various insurgent/paramilitary groups.

My experience is from Northern Ireland. The IRA and other republican paramilitary groups would never defeat the British military but would rather make the British government's position untenable through various acts of violence against a variety of target classes.

The republican motivation was as much frustration with the rights of the catholic population in northern Ireland as anything else.

The targeting was not quite free for all though.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#145

Post by karmakaze » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 11:35 PM UTC

They should lead by example. Stop using that which you want to remove, then we can have a meaningful public exchange.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#146

Post by retox » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 1:14 AM UTC

rocqua wrote: post #88

smlckz wrote: post #30

oh god, please teach these people about encryption: what they're trying to do - it does not work like they think it works (as it seems to be). > Locking the door of your house (with near impossible to break locks) prevents us to find out what you're doing/keeping in your house, so we can't know whether you're doing/keeping something illegal in your house. So we are going to ban the making and using of unbreakable (or…

Note, the police does not have the key to my front door. And yet, the police can get into my house if they need to. In the world of locks and doors, there is almost nothing I can feasibly do to totally make it impossible for the police to get into my house if I want to keep them out. Encryption is different. Making encryption that is nigh impossible to break is almost trivial these days. And the police has no recours…

Let's say that it's possible to create a lock and doors for your house that are impossible to defeat. The security forces would instead find another way into your property; the window, the chimney, blowing a hole in the wall, etc.

If the security forces don't have a master key for E2E encryption they should instead find another way to find evidence of a crime if they suspect one has taken place. The analogy does fall down somewhat when thinking about completely digital crimes when there is no physical evidence, one that comes to mind is child abuse, though this could be detected by teachers/care givers or analyzing videos/pictures from users which didn't practice good OPSEC.

I forget which group it was (Lizard Squad? LulzSec?) where one of the members was identified by analyzing internet usage and monitoring the suspects coming and going.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#147

Post by simonblack » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

Go ahead. Declare war on encryption. Make it weaker. But don't come running to me complaining that your bank balances have been drained because weak encryption allowed hackers to break in and take all your stuff.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#148

Post by brokenmachine » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #125

People don't seem to realize that you need both attack and defense. Let's take the 4 horsemen: terrorists, pedophiles, drug dealers, and money launderers. * If you weaken encryption, you can catch more terrorists. At the same time, the terrorists can track down their targets more quickly, and they might even find your personal identity and counter-attack directly. * If you weaken encryption, you can catch more pedoph…

The delusional narrative is that we can outlaw maths only for the baddies.

Someone needs to explain to them what TLS is and what it's used for.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#149

Post by brokenmachine » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:56 AM UTC

If it became known that the government intended to make the post office open all mail and store copies of it forever, I would imagine that there would be a public outcry.

How is this any different?

The basic premise that people need to fight is the idea that there can be no such thing as a private conversation.

Re: The EU is set to declare war on encryption

#150

Post by LatteLazy » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #142

LatteLazy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think free speech is much stronger in the EU. No central military means no central system of classifying things and no Espionage act. Similarly, gun rights are states rights in the EU. I shot an AK47 in Poland, seems pretty liberal to me...

You can find examples where certain US states or EU states have more freedom in a certain area, but the USA has a much more absolutist view towards human rights than the EU does in general. In the EU, rights are subservient to "the greater good" (as defined by those in power). Some examples: Germany will arrest you for using "symbols of unconstitutional organization". This includes the Communist Hammer + Sickle[1] Fr…

The same exact limits apply in the USA. Freedom of speech is no more absolute there than in the EU exactly because no one wants people "shouting fire in a crowded theatre".

Similarly, in the USA you can be fired for wearing a hijab just as rapidly.

The USA has some (not all) rights well protected against government action, but your employer has vastly more right to restrict your activities. Recent rulings even allow employers to compel religion or ban lgbt etc so long as the employer is "tightly held". This is the weakness of the US system: it protects a small number of limited rights very strongly, but only a small number and only against govetent interference. The EU has a much broader approach to rights in both these dimensions.