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The Cement of Society Is...

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Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#61

Post by nickff »

rtkwe wrote: post #29
bobthechef wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that the "other side" has the same EXACT perception of you, right? It would be nice if people were a bit more skeptical of their preferred news outlets and opinion makers. What I see instead is the continuing existence of the same bubble that led to the shock and surprise at Trump's election. An absolute refusal or inability to consider other views, an inability to interpret events in historical contex…

No, of course, I never thought about the perception from the other side. Yes I know that, I believe the things I do though because I either think they're correct, they should be correct, or I hope they'll be right some day, I think I've considered and synthesized information from various sources not just one or a small few. I get that my whole world view is a conglomeration of what I was taught, when I grew up, what…

Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" is a good start.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#62

Post by nickff »

flamble wrote: post #58
smegcicle wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Medicare for All being a success in one state would change little at least it would prove to work here- it's not like the US is in the exact same position as the EU eg, I'm not sure how they're connected, but it's obvious that the majority of medical research is being done over here, and I never see that mentioned in the comparisons between our systems and overseas; if the overpayment we're doing over here is necess…

> at least it would prove to work here- it's not like the US is in the exact same position as the EU The EU and Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Brunei, Australia, and New Zealand. It works all over the world. Research on the US system accords with the overwhelming evidence from all around: it would work. > eg, I'm not sure how they're connected ... medical research Let's clarify. The repugnant gouging in the…

But pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies are not outrageously profitable compared to chemical manufacturers and other insurers (respectively). The biggest cost center in the health industry is human resources, and nobody seems willing to tackle that (by reducing remuneration to doctors and nurses).

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#64

Post by nickff »

retsibsi wrote: post #30
lucas_membrane wrote: post #22

Trust. Or, as Reagan might have said, "Trust, and verify if you must."

Forgive me if this is too much of a tangent, but can anyone explain "trust, but verify" to me? I can't tell if it's drily ironic (basically meaning 'don't actually take anything on trust'), or kind of meaningless (like the previous interpretation, but meant to be polite and superficially positive), or has a meaning I'm completely missing.

I think it meant that you should trust your counterparty enough to be willing to make a deal with them, but then verify that they were following through on their end. This was important for disarmament treaties like SALT.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#65

Post by watwut »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #13
glial wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or at least, an agreement in the value of good faith discussion in pursuit of truth and mutual progress.

Alas, claiming that your opponent discusses things in bad faith is often the simplest way to get the upper hand.

There is however such thing as bad faith. Yes, the claim that opponent argues in bad faith itself can be don in bad faith.

But, when the discussion is actually in bad faith, you wont solve the issue by pretending to yourself that it was in good faith.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#66

Post by MaxBarraclough »

retsibsi wrote: post #30
lucas_membrane wrote: post #22

Trust. Or, as Reagan might have said, "Trust, and verify if you must."

Forgive me if this is too much of a tangent, but can anyone explain "trust, but verify" to me? I can't tell if it's drily ironic (basically meaning 'don't actually take anything on trust'), or kind of meaningless (like the previous interpretation, but meant to be polite and superficially positive), or has a meaning I'm completely missing.

I don't have anything to add to the existing answers other than it's a rhyming Russian proverb, not something Nixon came up with himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#68

Post by jboynyc »

As a sociologist, I can't help but notice some glaring absences. Allow me to amend:

...gift-giving (Mauss, 1925): Giving gifts creates an obligation to reciprocate, tying people together in bonds of mutual obligation.

...collective effervescence (Durkheim, 1912): People engaging in repeated ritual action which aligns their focus on a common object (Erving Goffman called this "interaction ritual") and who become attuned to one another have a shared intense experience that generates what Randall Collins calls "emotional energy."

...symbolic violence (Bourdieu, 1970): Interests of different groups in society run counter to one another, but the dominant classes and their elites manage to universalize their interests by inculcating subservient dispositions among the dominated through education and other cultural institutions.

A few more that I don't care to elaborate right now: kinship (Levi-Strauss, 1949), libido/cathexis (Freud, 1899), orgone (Reich, 1940), imagination (Castoriadis, 1975), interdependence (Elias, 1937).

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#70

Post by nlitened »

klyrs wrote: post #26
blhack wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in a car. The speedometer reads 50mph. How fast are you going?

50, plus or minus a bit depending on environmental conditions, tire wear, and speedometer calibration, relative to the surface you're driving on.

Not really if the car is running on a treadmill installed by a foreign government.
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