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The Cement of Society Is...

branemrys.blogspot.com

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Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#51
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s especially egregious in this case with 1/3 of examples being extremely politically oriented (the so-called systemic racism). One of the big issue is when people start thinking their fantasies are reality and will distort every fact to fit in, instead of critically think that they may, in fact, be wrong.

This is a fine example of what I mean. To me, from the left, there's very little room to question the existence of systematic racism. [0] From my perspective it flows pretty cleanly from several pretty solid facts. Black people were literally property for several hundred years. Once that ended there were explicitly racist laws and actions to keep black people out of any kind of economic or political power. [1] Maybe…

I think noone in their sane mind will deny that racism does exist. This is a fact and there are scientific ways to check it.

The questions are: how much does racism contributes to poverty among black people? Is it the only reason? Is it the main reason? Are there any other reasons? If these reasons are unpleasant (pick your favorite here) will we still be able to freely discuss them?

If racism is not the reason (let's imagine for a moment), how do we find it out?

If racism is the reason, then which policies are effective in fighting it and which are not? Why white-to-black unemployment ratio in conservative Alabama is the same as in progressive New Jersey? Why both New York and Texas do better?

Why? Why? Why?

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#52
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

opposite extreme: "'progress'- whatever the cost"... for some reason referred to as 'woke'? (still need to work on understanding that angle) "replacing what works with what sounds good" --T.Sowell offtopic rant, but on the subject of politics; to me it seems underhanded to pursue experimental federal programs eg for healthcare- why not demonstrate it works in a few test states.. wouldn't california love to pass somet…

> why not demonstrate it works in a few test states It's tough to do some things at the state level because there's less money at the state level vs the federal level. It's a lot easier for a business to move from a state to avoid taxes meant to pay for healthcare by rerouting fund from the private market to the public market than it is to leave the US entirely. The federal government gets it's taxes first from incom…

As for the etymology of woke I'm no linguist but it seems to flow pretty clearly from the idea of being awake to a problem. The particular slang is just from AAVE, not sure it's possible to trace where the different conjugation started from.

> "I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#53

Trust. Or, as Reagan might have said, "Trust, and verify if you must."

Forgive me if this is too much of a tangent, but can anyone explain "trust, but verify" to me? I can't tell if it's drily ironic (basically meaning 'don't actually take anything on trust'), or kind of meaningless (like the previous interpretation, but meant to be polite and superficially positive), or has a meaning I'm completely missing.

> Can anyone explain "trust, but verify" to me?

"Trust, but verify" is a long established quote in politics, but in the infosec community it has been used in a different way.

Based on this quote, some members from the cypherpunk community coined "Don't trust, verify", it represents the principle that one should use technological solutions that enable transparency or decentralization, such as free and open source software, P2P networks, cryptography, or reproducible builds to eliminate the dependence of an authority or a 3rd party, whose power may be abused. It's believed by many libertarians (in the broadest sense of the word) in the hacking world. It both represents an infosec doctrine and a political idealism. For example, you must trust your government and your ISP to protect the privacy and integrity of your communication, but if you use end-to-end encryption, you don't need to (and must not) trust - instead, the security properties of the system is independently verified, e.g. by reading code, check digital signatures, etc. In other words, "Code is Law".

Quote Bruce Schneier,

> What we also had, more important than ideas, was the unshakable belief that technology trumped politics. You can see it in John Perry Barlow's 1996 "Declara­tion of the Independence of Cyberspace," where he told governments, "You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." You can see it three years earlier in cypherpunk John Gilmore's famous quote: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." You can see it in the pages of Applied Cryptography. The first paragraph of the Preface, which I wrote in 1993, says, "There are two kinds of cryptography in this world: cryptography that will stop your kid sister from reading your files, and cryptography that will stop major governments from reading your files. This book is about the latter." This was the promise of cryptography. It was the promise behind everything­ from file and e-mail encryption to digital signatures, digital certified mail, secure election protocols, and digital cash. The math would give us all power and security, because math trumps everything else. It would topple everything from government sovereignty to the music industry's attempts at stopping file sharing. The "natural law" of cryptography is that it's much easier to use than it is to break.

This quote was popularized by the Bitcoin people and common in the cryptocurrency community, both to signify the distrust of the political and financial institutions, and to promote the perceived security properties of cryptocurrency, i.e. you don't even need to trust the blockchain, because the consensus rule is coded into the source code of your Bitcoin client, your transaction cannot be spoofed or seized - which is a verifiable fact (and it's not what you've found, file a bug report ASAP). Quote Schneier,

> In his 2008 white paper that first proposed bitcoin, the anonymous Satoshi Nakamoto concluded with: “We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust.” He was referring to blockchain, the system behind bitcoin cryptocurrency. [...] We might not know someone personally, or know their motivations, but we can trust their future actions. Blockchain enables this sort of trust: We don’t know any bitcoin miners, for example, but we trust that they will follow the mining protocol and make the whole system work. Most blockchain enthusiasts [...] are fond of catchphrases like “in code we trust,” “in math we trust,” and “in crypto we trust.”

However, "Don't trust, verify" is seen as problematic by many people, including Schneier. First, it has become the rallying cry of the cryptocurrency community, which many people do not want to explicitly be associated with. Also, it has been criticized by many, for being unrealistic due to various reasons - to begin with, it's infeasible to verify everything, and you still need to have a general sense of trust that the system is designed to be secure, and even in a decentralized system which trust is verified by code, the need to trust other humans and institutions persist, just in other forms. Read Bruce Schneier's criticism here [0].

> What blockchain does is shift some of the trust in people and institutions to trust in technology. You need to trust the cryptography, the protocols, the software, the computers and the network. And you need to trust them absolutely, because they’re often single points of failure.

> When that trust turns out to be misplaced, there is no recourse. If your bitcoin exchange gets hacked, you lose all of your money. If your bitcoin wallet gets hacked, you lose all of your money. If you forget your login credentials, you lose all of your money. If there’s a bug in the code of your smart contract, you lose all of your money. If someone successfully hacks the blockchain security, you lose all of your money. In many ways, trusting technology is harder than trusting people. Would you rather trust a human legal system or the details of some computer code you don’t have the expertise to audit?

> Blockchain enthusiasts point to more traditional forms of trust — bank processing fees, for example — as expensive. But blockchain trust is also costly; the cost is just hidden. For bitcoin, that’s the cost of the additional bitcoin mined, the transaction fees, and the enormous environmental waste.

> Blockchain doesn’t eliminate the need to trust human institutions. There will always be a big gap that can’t be addressed by technology alone. People still need to be in charge, and there is always a need for governance outside the system. This is obvious in the ongoing debate about changing the bitcoin block size, or in fixing the DAO attack against Ethereum. There’s always a need to override the rules, and there’s always a need for the ability to make permanent rules changes. As long as hard forks are a possibility — that’s when the people in charge of a blockchain step outside the system to change it — people will need to be in charge.

> Blockchain technology is often centralized. Bitcoin might theoretically be based on distributed trust, but in practice, that’s just not true. Just about everyone using bitcoin has to trust one of the few available wallets and use one of the few available exchanges. People have to trust the software and the operating systems and the computers everything is running on. And we’ve seen attacks against wallets and exchanges. We’ve seen Trojans and phishing and password guessing. Criminals have even used flaws in the system that people use to repair their cell phones to steal bitcoin.

> Moreover, in any distributed trust system, there are backdoor methods for centralization to creep back in. With bitcoin, there are only a few miners of consequence. There’s one company that provides most of the mining hardware. There are only a few dominant exchanges. To the extent that most people interact with bitcoin, it is through these centralized systems. This also allows for attacks against blockchain-based systems.

Currently, most people (outside of the cryptocurrency community) have already heard of the original saying and accepted the criticism against it - after all, it's self-evident that completely replacing trust with verification is infeasible. Nevertheless, independent verification is still seen as a good idea and important in general. So the infosec community reverted the quote back to "Trust, but verify."

[0] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_an...

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approach new information, assuming good intent. Nonetheless, there's no shame or guilt in verifying your assumption by verifying. No offense should be taken, it's merely prudent behavior. Verifying should not imply lack of trust; however, it's conceivable that repeated verifications may render the need to verify in the future a lower priority, due to past precedent. At least, that's my take.

This seems mostly like a positive spin on "don't actually trust", though. I think if you're not willing to base your actions on the assumption of truth/good faith, you're not really trusting in any meaningful sense.

> This seems mostly like a positive spin on "don't actually trust"

Yes, it's exactly what it has evolved to in some communities ("don't trust, verify"). However, people realize that totally eliminating trust is unrealistic or infeasible at best, and counterproductive or harmful at worst. Trust must be assumed initially, but nevertheless, independent verification and accountability is still a good idea, hence "trust, but verify".

I've explained the history of the quote in another comment, be sure to read it.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Puritanism Owen, Flavel, Sibbes, Manton, Perkins -- it would be amazing if these guys were the cement of our society!

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/puritan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Owen_(theologian)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Flavel

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sibbes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Manton

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Perkins_(theologian)

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#57
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

opposite extreme: "'progress'- whatever the cost"... for some reason referred to as 'woke'? (still need to work on understanding that angle) "replacing what works with what sounds good" --T.Sowell offtopic rant, but on the subject of politics; to me it seems underhanded to pursue experimental federal programs eg for healthcare- why not demonstrate it works in a few test states.. wouldn't california love to pass somet…

They just want to pass programs they can get people addicted to to secure votes. Example: welfare.

Maybe for the sake of argument the D politicians are cynically doing it purely for the sake of holding power so we don't even have to ask what the end goal is. Then why do voters want it? There are plenty of democratic voters like me who aren't direct beneficiaries of public assistance. Why do I and others like me support expanding social safety nets?

Personally it's for me it's that I think the economy is pretty brutal and random and to make the best economic choice means treating your whole life as fungible in the service of not winding up on the streets. You're supposed to just pick up and move uprooting the whole family if your local region goes into downturn probably leaving wealth behind if you did buy a house or find time to learn a new trade while also working to not starve. Personally I'm in a fairly secure position as a knowledge worker but even those jobs are subject to the whims of the larger economy. I'd like there to be an alternative to that for myself so I want to extend that grace to people who've had a worse time of it than me.

At the core it's a lot of believing that whole you can steer yourself we live in a big economy that only cares about people as much as we force it to. I think people deserve better than to just be cogs in a machine that funnels money towards people that already have it.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#58
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing "underhanded" about it, and it's nowhere near being "experimental": almost every country in the developed world has universal healthcare and the overwhelming preponderance of evidence demonstrates its superiority in every criterion. If you think that the debate over healthcare has anything to do with the substantive merits of one system over another, you're viewing it through the wrong lens. It is pu…

>Medicare for All being a success in one state would change little at least it would prove to work here- it's not like the US is in the exact same position as the EU eg, I'm not sure how they're connected, but it's obvious that the majority of medical research is being done over here, and I never see that mentioned in the comparisons between our systems and overseas; if the overpayment we're doing over here is necess…

> at least it would prove to work here- it's not like the US is in the exact same position as the EU

The EU and Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Brunei, Australia, and New Zealand. It works all over the world. Research on the US system accords with the overwhelming evidence from all around: it would work.

> eg, I'm not sure how they're connected ... medical research

Let's clarify. The repugnant gouging in the cost of hospital care, doctor's visits etc redounds mostly to the profit of private insurance who provide no social value in return. The exorbitant cost of medicine does indeed flow to pharmaceutical companies, but the particulars of how they would be affected depend on the details of how universal health care was implemented.

> complaints that our health care is 'too expensive' never seem to take into account that our (expensive) health care is the best in the world

I have no idea where you got that notion; the US is generally not ranked in the top 20.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

https://healthcarechannel.co/how-australian-healthcare-ranks...

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